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C3G Legacy Archive of all the original discussions and workshops from the first stage of C3G.


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  #13  
Old May 27th, 2013, 08:31 PM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

Lots of interesting theoryscape here. I look forward to reading detailed playtest sheets pertaining to units folks are concerned about.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


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  #14  
Old May 27th, 2013, 10:01 PM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

Bats and I talked this over and we change to change some of the criteria and give the initiative of this process over to you guys.

If you come to a consensus and post at least 6 different army tests by 3 different people, we will take that data and evaluate it in the sanctum. Then we'll get back to you with how we want to go from there.

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  #15  
Old May 28th, 2013, 07:25 AM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

Quote:
Some others, very quickly:

- Wendigo could use a point drop
- Loki could be reduced a tad
- Penguin needs a increase for self importance
- Ventriloquist needs more potent powers
- Iron Man MK3 is too weak compared to the others
- Hawkeye either needs a point drop, or a increase to his powers, he just isnt on the same level as Green Arrow
I agree with all of these except Wendigo. Everytime I have used him he has killed over 500 points (once it was 1170 in 1 turn!!!). I just always make sure he is the last figure in my army and he cleans up better than any other figure in the game.
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  #16  
Old May 28th, 2013, 08:49 AM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

I have to agree that it's not just the characters powers alone but it's in how you play them. My first run with Prof. X in a mutant army ended disasterously when I had my X on a Healing Factor X character & Impossible Man just popupianed next to him & smashed the Prof. flat, wheels & all.
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  #17  
Old May 28th, 2013, 09:29 AM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

Thank you, I am in full agreement on Hawkeye. He is at bare minimum on par with Oliver Queen but he (in my opinion) is much weaker and not as useful as Queen the game. Does anyone else feel this way, cause I would love to do a few playtests of Hawkeye (assuming the majority agree and two other people are willing to test) and get him looked at.
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  #18  
Old May 28th, 2013, 10:34 AM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

I have only played a couple games with Hawkeye but felt he did well. He fills a different niche than Green Arrow because of his Agent synergies, plus Close Combat Expert means that he's almost better when engaged. Hawkeye is a better team player while Green Arrow goes solo.

Then again, I only know Hawkeye from The Avengers movie.
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  #19  
Old May 28th, 2013, 10:39 AM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

If someone wants to test Hawkeye, try the following build:

220 Nick Fury
150 Hawkeye
160 Banshee
90 Dum Dum Dugan
440 SHIELD Agents x4
1060

The heroes stay on the helicarrier while the Agents take positions. Then drop, and take lots of Hawkeye/Agent turns.

I have not played this build myself, but I suspect that Hawkeye is reasonably priced.
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  #20  
Old May 28th, 2013, 10:45 AM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

Here's my suggestion for Hawkeye - Change the Special Attack into a special power that grants him those abilities when attacking with his normal attack. The bonuses he can gain in that manner definitely put him worth his points, but a 3 attack by itself isn't all that phenomenal. I think his problem is the fact that he is OK at either range or close combat, but not particularly strong in either. Also, I do not think he should only be worth his points in a Nick Fury team, Nick fury is supposed to make the other agents better, not just worth their points. (ex. Black Widow is worth at least 200 if paired with Nick, Clint is worth, at best, 160)
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  #21  
Old May 28th, 2013, 10:53 AM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

Smithy I couldn't have said it any better myself.
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  #22  
Old May 28th, 2013, 11:45 AM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

Another thought of mine - The second Batman still feels a bit wrong to me. It feels like he is just a Kryptonian counter unit, not Batman. I think he should have much more glyphs than he currently has.
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  #23  
Old May 28th, 2013, 12:00 PM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

I agree with both Darkraptor and Smithy about Hawkeye, the card we have is not a good option at 150 points and he has such a long history as a character that his value should not only be based on his effectiveness when with Nick Fury. That is what Nick Fury's high point cost is for, making other agents better, while Hawkeye's point cost should allow him to be an effective multi-use option.

I have previously voiced my displeasure with the Hawkeye card and have since played him many, many times and still have the same opinion. However a simple point adjustment will not change my issues with the card, he just fails the theme test for me. When I use that card I come away feeling like I just played a game with someone wearing Hawkeye's uniform and pretending to be him but not knowing any of Hawkeye's moves and having only half of Hawkeye's skill.

I really like the Grapple Arrow power but the rest of the card needs a complete redesign IMO. The special attack just isn't very special (changing it to a special power is a good idea though Smithy!) and CCE shouldn't be on the card at all. It would have worked better as Ballistics Combat Expert, where he gets the auto-skull & auto-shield when attacking and defending against non-adjacent attacks. Right now the Hawkeye we have is best when in close combat and not using his bow at all.

I'm sorry if I come off as being overly harsh, this is something I have been frustrated with for a long time now. If you all are really willing to consider a major redesign of the card I'd me happy to provide a play test report for the current version. Hell, I'd even be happy to spend some of my points and helm a public redesign of the card if that were possible. If you have no interest in a redesign though and will only consider a minor adjustment, then it is probably best that I stay out of it as I am too emotionally tied to this subject to be of much use in that regard. I'd rather just suffer in silence then burn a bunch of bridges fighting a battle I can't possibly win.
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  #24  
Old May 28th, 2013, 12:01 PM
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Re: C3G Requests for Reevaluation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred View Post
Here's my suggestion for Hawkeye - Change the Special Attack into a special power that grants him those abilities when attacking with his normal attack. The bonuses he can gain in that manner definitely put him worth his points, but a 3 attack by itself isn't all that phenomenal. I think his problem is the fact that he is OK at either range or close combat, but not particularly strong in either.
This might be worth looking at, but I still think he's far from the most overpriced figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred View Post
Also, I do not think he should only be worth his points in a Nick Fury team, Nick fury is supposed to make the other agents better, not just worth their points.
This goes back to the same discussion I was having with Yodaking, about overpowered figures:

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yodaking View Post
I think you need to be careful trying to price every unit based on the effectiveness of their best possible combination of units and powers. To do so would make them unusable in any army outside of that narrow window.
This may just be a distinction in philosophy, but "price based on best combinations" is pretty much a guiding principle in C3V.

It gets fuzzier when the thing that makes a figure perform at its best isn't a combo of figures, but rather a scenario or map. We are generally OK with a figure being really good in its ideal environment as long as it's not out-and-out broken in that environment. The Eilan Sidhe are a good example - they are a very solid "A", maybe even an A+, on a very tree-heavy map, but pretty mediocre outside that.
I still feel that the most reasonable way to price most C3G figures is to price them based on their effectiveness when paired with their best synergistic allies, on standard maps with standard point totals. Pricing most figures based on their standalone efficiency just doesn't make sense. It works fine for Anti-Monitor but falls short with most other figures, because it doesn't reflect how they are actually played.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithy Winfred View Post
(ex. Black Widow is worth at least 200 if paired with Nick, Clint is worth, at best, 160)
Interesting. I feel the opposite way about those two. Black Widow is one of those figures where I look at her and say "what is she doing in my army"? I'm not saying she's bad (I'm not suggesting she's overpriced) but I approach competitive army design in terms of filling roles, and at the 1000+ point level I don't see what role I'm filling with Black Widow.

Hawkeye, on the other hand, seems like a figure that pairs well with the SHIELD agents and whose special attack allows him to deal with different sorts of threats.

The one time I played against an army that had Hawkeye and Black Widow, there was no Nick Fury in the build, yet I definitely felt Hawkeye was my biggest threat out of all figures in that army. Hawkeye was able to set up outside Doctor Light's And Vertigo's auras, and pick off multiple Beat Cops each turn, without triggering Angel's or Superman's special powers.

All of that said, I am still willing to buy that he's a bit overpriced or that he could use more offensive punch. I just don't feel he's at the end of the spectrum. It's possible that I rate him more highly precisely because he is good at dealing with the sort of pod army that I mention above.
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