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  #7801  
Old August 15th, 2022, 10:01 AM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Thank you for all of your work, Bigga. With 22 written reviews you rank as one of the SoV's largest contributors. It's sad to see you go, but I wish you well in your future endeavors.
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  #7802  
Old August 15th, 2022, 10:04 AM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The Diorite Defender has received 6 Yea votes to review (Scytale, vegietarian18, Dysole, superfrog, Vydar_XLIII, and wriggz) and moves forward in the process.

And with Bigga's departure, 4 Yea votes to review (Scytale, superfrog, wriggz, and Vydar_XLIII) is now enough to move the Wulfing Hunters forward in the process as well.
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  #7803  
Old August 24th, 2022, 05:32 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Lee Jun by @Leaf_It

The changes to my Lee Jun since his prior submission are small but impactful. Along with a modest price increase there is now a hard limit on the amount of defense dice that can be gained from Melee Combat Expert. These directly address the concerns I brought up in my previous review.

Without a limit on Melee Combat Expert, Lee's three abilities all boosted each other to frustrating levels when playing against him with a melee swarm army. He could often easily position himself into optimal positions where he was engaged with as many enemy figures as possible, tying them down and not only fending off their attacks with ease but punishing them for even trying. With the new limit of +2, this dynamic completely changes. Defense of 5 combined with Bending Reed Stance is still potent, but a swarm can overwhelm him now, which makes leaping deep into the crowd much more dangerous. This means he has to pick his targets more carefully, and is better at covering flanks than trying to hold the front line on his own. This leads to more dynamic play alongside Master Lao Xin as well.

In other situations that are not in his wheel house, such as facing range, he's a little worse than before due to the price bump, but that change is minor. The price more directly reflects his best case, one that is not uncommon in casual play or the competitive meta. Lee Jun does what he does and is worth the price when doing so, and he isn't terrible otherwise.

I vote Yea to induct Lee Jun into the SoV.
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  #7804  
Old August 29th, 2022, 01:09 PM
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Dysole Dysole is offline
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Beware of Swog

Feral Swog or Everybody Wants a Cat

Balance

The Feral Swog is not significantly better than most of the standard bonding options for the armies it appears in. It's got a fairly restrained SA and the the other abilities are just flavor. Stats are basically a Swog Rider with a little more life.

Theme

Feral Swog does feel like a beefier version of a Swog. Wolves, having to survive out in the wild are tougher than say a domesticated dog, even if it's one of the tougher breeds like a German Shepherd or mastiff. Being hardier and with more attack options both fit to me. Swog training is interesting to me as while it doesn't affect the ability to bond with Chasers and Arrow Gruts but does affect the ability to bond with the more naturally wild Spiders and Arrow Gruts. It is essentially a wild free predator without orcs and with them it's a recently tamed beast. I like it a lot. The SA is also solidly built to encapsulate the better chance of damage against a target if it can start its turn unengaged.

Creativity

The Special Attack and Disengage are fairly straightforward so the most creative part is Swog Training. And I really like it. It's relatively elegant allowing for the Swog to slot into a number of different builds. Less is more is a principle I'm starting to appreciate more and more here and I love how the other powers' simplicity allow this aspect to really shine.

Playability

There were a number of possible options to test here. Spiders with and without Estivara, Arrow Gruts, and Chasers. Most of the matchups I played were against things where the Swog's SA would come in handy. It proved its worth in matchups against Ashra, Samurai, Gladiatrons, and Durgeth among others. The tricky part was figuring out what was the best usage of it and whether two were worth it or not. Usually, the best builds only ran one and used the Swog as a more surgical strike unit than as a consistent bonder.

Summary

I like this unit a lot. There's a lot of potentially fun builds and adding a Special Attack to a number of armies that don't have it is a really nice touch. My biggest concern really boils down to that as is, Feral Swog is like the 4th best choice for almost all the armies as the other options can still do some things so I almost always felt like I could've used my points better. There are places for subpar units or units who only fit in things like Dungeon Crawls. This is a different type of figure. A unit that bonds with 3 army types should be something able to be considered for those army types and at 50 points it's just too many points for me to justify except in very weird formats or figure/point restrictions. If it was 40 or 45 I would upvote it without question as even that small difference makes me feel much more justified in spending the points on them.

I vote NO to induct Feral Swog into the SoV

~Dysole, who meant to get this out before Scapecon and then life attacked
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  #7805  
Old August 29th, 2022, 01:32 PM
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Scytale Scytale is offline
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

The Diorite Defender and the Wulfing Hunters have passed United Fanscape Review and move forward in the process.
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  #7806  
Old August 29th, 2022, 03:17 PM
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MegaSilver MegaSilver is offline
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

@Dysole so it reads to me your main/only issue is points? Well that's not too bad then. Thanks for the review!
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  #7807  
Old September 5th, 2022, 05:41 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Question:
If official HeroScape is going to be unpainted from here on out, will SoV be taking on nominations for unpainted miniatures?

Jugger

It's like football with swords or LARPing without the geeky stuff. In other words, it's awesomely perfect!
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  #7808  
Old September 5th, 2022, 09:35 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tai-Pan View Post
Question:
If official HeroScape is going to be unpainted from here on out, will SoV be taking on nominations for unpainted miniatures?
I don’t think there’s an official answer yet but here’s one potential answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
I can't speak officially for VC, but if official figures come unpainted it will be hard to turn away SoV submitters for doing the same.
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  #7809  
Old September 5th, 2022, 02:03 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I think if the design's good (and if you'd have someone paint the mini so there'd be a painted image for the army card), that would be good enough for most people. A painting color scheme/ tutorial for the Book could be icing on the cake.
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  #7810  
Old September 5th, 2022, 02:11 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

It has not been voted on yet and probably will not be until we know more about what the new Heroscape cards look like.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craig Van Ness View Post
I highly recommend C3V and C3G customs!
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  #7811  
Old September 5th, 2022, 02:11 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

C3G does modding and paint tutorials, would be great to take precedent from there. Seems to work great.
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  #7812  
Old September 8th, 2022, 11:35 AM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Feral Swog by @MegaSilver



Creativity
We have a lot of units from past, present, and future Earth. A lot of the other planets in the lore are much less varied when it comes to time periods of the units we’re seeing, at least at first glance. The Feral Swog is a design that looks at the history of Grut. Of a time when the Swog roamed free and before the Orcs subjugated the dinosaurs. I love it. It’s a fresh take on lore that has been around since the beginning of the game.

Theme
The Feral Swog’s theme is incredibly easy to read on the card. The first thing a player reads on the card, its name, makes reference to the Swog Rider. Allowing the player to immediately know where this design exists in canon. A Swog Rider but different. It has the same right-side stats except for Life and through its Beast Training power and by being Large and Wild, it has the same Arrow Grut and Death Chaser bonding that place it in the exact same spot as the existing Swog Rider. All this to reinforce their thematic relationship.

With the relationship between the Feral Swog and the Swog Rider incredibly clear, the Feral Swog then strikes out on its own. It loses its rider and the rider’s cheerleading for the Arrow Gruts and becomes a swift predator in its own right. To me, Swift Strike Special Attack and the miniature’s bulkier frame when compared to the Swog Rider do a lot to justify its predator class. And luckily for Aquilla, she and her Spiders have an affinity for predators.

There is one problem with leaning so heavily into the Swog theme, and one I’m embarrassed to admit I did not catch earlier in the process. It’s that the Death Chasers of Thesk do not have “Wild, Large and Huge Bonding,” they have “Taskmaster Bonding.” While these are functionally identical, they are not thematically identical. I cannot justify the Feral Swog as any kind of “Taskmaster;” therefore, I don’t think the Feral Swog can have a Wild personality. Ferocious or something similar, I think, would fit the design well and remove this thematic break.

Balance
There aren’t many low-cost, melee, non-cheerleader and non-utility bonding heroes to compare to, but Otar and Sir Orrick immediately come to mind. They have a 4th attack or defense die respectively but that kind of equals out with the speed and maneuverability of the Feral Swog. That said, they’re both third-tier bonding options that hardly ever see play as it is. So, while the Feral Swog’s stats match up with the closest comparisons, all 3 units might be a bit overpriced for what they bring to the table. I think the Feral Swog could do with a 5-10-point reduction in cost.

Playability
The Feral Swog is in the unique position of being a bonding hero for 3 different squads; the Arrow Gruts, the Fyorlag Spiders, and the Death Chasers of Thesk. Now, Feral Swogs aren’t going to be a first-tier bonding option for any of them, that’s obvious. They are absolutely filler pieces. This leads to two problems for them. First, an additional squad often fills the space in the army and provides more value than a Feral Swog. Second, with the exception of the Spiders, each squad has better bonding options at 50 points. And it really isn’t a contest. A Feral Swog is never going to replace Nerak or Me-Burq-Sa in the Chasers army, or Otar or more Swog Riders in an Arrow Grut army.

This leaves the niche that the Feral Swog can effectively occupy quite small. Only as a second, smaller bonding hero in a Quahon or Sujoah centric army. I can see one or two finding success alongside Quahon and Spiders in a format without A+ units or in Delta where it doesn’t have to compete with the Marro Warriors as a 50 point cleanup figure. I quite like the Feral Swog in this role. You can take a bonding turn early to set it up and then you have a unit with 9 threat range ready to go. Your spiders are dwindling and Quahon needs a bit more screen, send the Swog in to tie up a few units. Quahon goes down early, you still have 4 attacks thanks to a backup bonding option.

Outside of that they’re really only going to see play in a Death Chaser army with exactly 50 and not 55 points left over after it has all it wants. Or in lower powered formats with a common limit or a lower figure cap where you can’t take a squad of Arrows or DCs instead of the Feral Swog.

Summary
I think the easiest was to sum up this design is that I disagree with Scy’s conclusion that it
“…slides easily into a number of different bonding builds…” I frequently asked myself, “Why am I not just taking another squad of Arrows?” or “I have 60 points left, why a Feral Swog and Isamu instead of more Death Chasers?” I don’t think it slides into Arrow Gruts or Death Chasers easily without being obviously sub-optimal. Thematically, the design wants to have a home within two armies and in practice it really only has one with the Spiders. I love this unit from a thematic and storytelling perspective (except for the Taskmaster issue), but I frequently just can’t justify its use when compared to a lot of existing units.

I’ve found that I really want this unit to cost 30-35 points (with -1 Life or whatever reduction in stats justifies this point drop). At that price, most of my critiques go away. Now it’s a true filler unit. At that cost, I can’t take an extra squad over it anymore. I’m not sacrificing efficiency to include this unit anymore. It fits into all intended armies and has some niche outside those by virtue of having an, albeit mediocre, special attack at a cheap cost.

I vote NAY to induct the Feral Swog into the SoV.

----------

To be clear, the above should not be taken as carte blanche to “fix X, Y and Z” and resubmit. The 30-35 point range suggestion is my subjective opinion about something I have not tested. It does fix my current critiques but it may open up the design to some new ones. For example, I don't think the 50 point Feral Swog is too powerful in the Quahon/Spiders army, but lowering the cost does bring up concerns of how much utility a cheap secondary bonding option brings to that already top-tier Army, especially in 550+ points / 24 spaces VCheese formats. The Quahon, Spiders, Raelin, MWs, Feral Swog army should not be oppressive (A Tier is fine, just not S Tier) at those totals. You have to balance lowering the cost with how much utility the figure actually provides.

Last edited by Vydar_XLIII; September 8th, 2022 at 12:47 PM.
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