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  #37  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:02 PM
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lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funrun
I don't have an answer either but the discussion is going well. I brought up the above because I know for sure that at least 5 people got +500, and at least 3 of those happened in the first round. I looked over all the sheets of people who didn't make the finals and saw a few other +500 games, I would say en total there were six to eight people out of our 40(?) total who had +500 games. That is way too many IMO. Hence why I raised this issue.
I got a +500 over Skynight in the first round and he was able to recover and make it to the second day. Certainly neither one of us had an 'easy' opponent in this round!
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  #38  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:05 PM
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R˙chean R˙chean is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
To me, it is like removing Welfare because of the people who abuse the system. What about the people who genuinely need it? You would be punishing the people who follow the rules to get at the people who bend/break the rules. It just doesn't work for me...
And I still contest that it is the perception of losing players that thier opponent was abusing the rule. I don't think abuse is actually occurring.

So on a slightly different note.

In my Game with Lonewolf, when my Airborne dropped I placed two of them behind ruins out of harms way. Why? 1.) so that they might live to fight another round. But more importantly 2. ) so that I would not lose those 110 points.

Am I a bad sport for protecting my point value on the board?

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  #39  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:13 PM
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lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
I would prefer to use software but there are logistic problems as noted. I would also prefer to minimize some trends in gameplay that are not fair such as stalling. If somebody's playstyle includes stalling, then I don't think it is a bad thing for them to change their style, especially if they are eating up too much of the clock and gaining an advantage by doing so.
I reiterate, I don't think that is a tactic that was being used. Stalling means you are knowingly taking longer with your turns than you normally do. This isn't what was happening. Players got upset because they lost and found something to complain about. The continued assertion that any player purposely went from normal playing mode to slow playing mode is a perception from players who lost; players who had a vested interest in the outcome. I say again: I didn't see anyone nor did I play anyone that purposely slowed down or sped up. In addition, in the 14 tournaments and 64 tournament games I have played I have yet to see this. (stalling when ahead on points)

Two sides to every coin, the person on the losing end is the one complaining. Did anyone that won complain that their opponent took too long? Probably not.

All PD does is change the possibilty; it doesn't remove it.
I was on the losing end of my match with R˙chean and we were headed to PD with time running out. It caused me to make some moves that I wouldn't normally make to try and swing the point differential. These moves ultimately cost me the game.

That said, I have two points....

1. I never felt like either one of us were stalling or playing the clock. The nature of the armies we had were conducive to taking more time to play. I had to move 8 figures per turn and he had to scatter 2 rats after every time I attacked. All of these extra moves made our game move along a little slower. Some armies just take longer to play and I don't think you should be punished for this. I didn't hear any accusations of stalling in any of the games I observed.

2. Maybe we could make the games longer for the second day? I am not sure how much time, but at least the SE games might not be decided by the clock. I know Rev and I could have used an extra 15 minutes and I would have loved to get 15 more minutes against R˙chean.
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  #40  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:15 PM
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lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
To me, it is like removing Welfare because of the people who abuse the system. What about the people who genuinely need it? You would be punishing the people who follow the rules to get at the people who bend/break the rules. It just doesn't work for me...
And I still contest that it is the perception of losing players that thier opponent was abusing the rule. I don't think abuse is actually occurring.

So on a slightly different note.

In my Game with Lonewolf, when my Airborne dropped I placed two of them behind ruins out of harms way. Why? 1.) so that they might live to fight another round. But more importantly 2. ) so that I would not lose those 110 points.

Am I a bad sport for protecting my point value on the board?
Nope, I would have done the same thing! That is the inherent Risk/Reward in playing the AE. The very same thing caused Nwo-Jedi to not make the second day. You made the roll, he didn't, either way I think it was completely fair and part of the game and part of the risk of playing that particular unit!
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  #41  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
And I still contest that it is the perception of losing players that thier opponent was abusing the rule. I don't think abuse is actually occurring.
This got me thinking that apparently, whoever tried to make the point about not getting equal playtime had the wrong perception about why they lost. Clearly, this person lost because they do not fully understand the Heroscape game mechanics. :P

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  #42  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by funrun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
If you sit down to the table, and you only get 20 minutes of playtime, because your opponent used much more time and got 40 minutes, then he has an unfair and excessively indulgent advantage.
Total game time used per player has zero influence on winning Heroscape because each player plays the same number of order markers and hence gets equal gameplay opportunities (so long as each player finishes on the same order marker number.) For example, Player 1 turn 1 can take 60 minutes and player 2 turn 1 can take 5 seconds, but both players had the same number of turns and thus the game is balanced. This is one of the beauties of the Heroscape game mechanics
It is the limiting of the other players quality of turns that is the issue. Again if you indulge yourself and take way too much time on your turn trying to analyse every contingency, and your opponent does not do this, you are gaining an advantage and abusing the system unfairly. This is what happens when a player is stalling.. It is forcing the game to points and playing only to get a vp win. It is something that is talked about in most other tourneys, it has just never become a problem until this year. I am surprised at the folks who take such long turns and think that it is ok. At some point you should say hey! I'm taking twice as long to finish my turns as anybody else and am constantly going to the clock.

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  #43  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
I would prefer to use software but there are logistic problems as noted. I would also prefer to minimize some trends in gameplay that are not fair such as stalling. If somebody's playstyle includes stalling, then I don't think it is a bad thing for them to change their style, especially if they are eating up too much of the clock and gaining an advantage by doing so.
I reiterate, I don't think that is a tactic that was being used. Stalling means you are knowingly taking longer with your turns than you normally do. This isn't what was happening. Players got upset because they lost and found something to complain about. The continued assertion that any player purposely went from normal playing mode to slow playing mode is a perception from players who lost; players who had a vested interest in the outcome. I say again: I didn't see anyone nor did I play anyone that purposely slowed down or sped up. In addition, in the 14 tournaments and 64 tournament games I have played I have yet to see this. (stalling when ahead on points)

Two sides to every coin, the person on the losing end is the one complaining. Did anyone that won complain that their opponent took too long? Probably not.

All PD does is change the possibilty; it doesn't remove it.
I was on the losing end of my match with R˙chean and we were headed to PD with time running out. It caused me to make some moves that I wouldn't normally make to try and swing the point differential. These moves ultimately cost me the game.

That said, I have two points....

1. I never felt like either one of us were stalling or playing the clock. The nature of the armies we had were conducive to taking more time to play. I had to move 8 figures per turn and he had to scatter 2 rats after every time I attacked. All of these extra moves made our game move along a little slower. Some armies just take longer to play and I don't think you should be punished for this. I didn't hear any accusations of stalling in any of the games I observed.

2. Maybe we could make the games longer for the second day? I am not sure how much time, but at least the SE games might not be decided by the clock. I know Rev and I could have used an extra 15 minutes and I would have loved to get 15 more minutes against R˙chean.
Why were you concerned about PD on a single elimination event? A win is a win. The PD just helps break ties.

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  #44  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:33 PM
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lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Why were you concerned about PD on a single elimination event? A win is a win. The PD just helps break ties.
Because I was behind and as soon as the clock struck 12, I was going to lose, so I had to do something to change that! It didn't matter how many points I was beat by, only that I was down in points and time was running out!

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  #45  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:35 PM
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lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
It is something that is talked about in most other tourneys, it has just never become a problem until this year.
The main event was 400 point armies last year and 500 this year for the same 1 hour of playing time. This would explain why this year there were more complaints of stalling than last year. It takes longer to finish a 500 pt game.
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  #46  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by R˙chean
Quote:
Originally Posted by UranusPChicago
To me, it is like removing Welfare because of the people who abuse the system. What about the people who genuinely need it? You would be punishing the people who follow the rules to get at the people who bend/break the rules. It just doesn't work for me...
And I still contest that it is the perception of losing players that thier opponent was abusing the rule. I don't think abuse is actually occurring.

So on a slightly different note.

In my Game with Lonewolf, when my Airborne dropped I placed two of them behind ruins out of harms way. Why? 1.) so that they might live to fight another round. But more importantly 2. ) so that I would not lose those 110 points.

Am I a bad sport for protecting my point value on the board?
Nope, I would have done the same thing! That is the inherent Risk/Reward in playing the AE. The very same thing caused Nwo-Jedi to not make the second day. You made the roll, he didn't, either way I think it was completely fair and part of the game and part of the risk of playing that particular unit!
Yet another reason why I dislike the Hasbro scoring system and prefer partial points for squads being killed, but that is another argument. Let's try to resolve this one first....

I really think the 3, 2, 1 system works well. The 4, 2, 1 "punishes" slower players/armies a little too much. If we are concerned about time, we could use chess clocks set to 25 minutes for each player and if time runs out that player loses. Again, that might be a bit too extreme especially with Sir Gilbert armies or Reaver armies.

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  #47  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:41 PM
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Grungebob Grungebob is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonewolf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grungebob
Why were you concerned about PD on a single elimination event? A win is a win. The PD just helps break ties.
Because I was behind and as soon as the clock struck 12, I was going to lose, so I had to do something to change that! It didn't matter how many points I was beat by, only that I was down in points and time was running out!

But that has nothing to do with the PD discussion. we are talking about the validity of choosing PD as our standard. As an alternative to the DCI points algorythm. The reason for this is to create a relatively fair tourney system that any kid can take back to his hometown and conduct without the need for software or or other supplies.

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  #48  
Old August 20th, 2007, 04:42 PM
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lonewolf lonewolf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by damja
Again, that might be a bit too extreme especially with Sir Gilbert armies or Reaver armies.
How about a Gladiatron/Blastatron army! I had 8 units to move each turn and 4 to attack with! ( I guess I shouldn't be complaining!!)
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