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  #25  
Old February 2nd, 2009, 05:07 PM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroscape Elffy View Post
Are you sure it isn't just because you've fallen in love with my Arkmer RP?
Uh... yeah... that's it.

Seriously, Elffy. Other than Arkmer is there any Elf Wizard you'd consider spending points on in a non-EWiz army?

~Aldin, who often sees more than 50 points fall to Arkmer

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  #26  
Old February 2nd, 2009, 05:11 PM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

Well, yeah. One of my favorite builds for 510 is:
Arkmer
Emirroon
Kyntela
Ashra x3
Aubriens x3
It is quite effective.
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  #27  
Old February 2nd, 2009, 05:46 PM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

I agree with Jexik - 8th best. I'd add some squad figures to the elf wizard posse before I'd consider Acolarh.

Tai-Pan: of course you're right that KG does nothing by herself. But 20 points, to boost several tightly-huddled elves by 1 defense each, is a HUGE bargain. She might just be 3 wounds your opponent has to tend to first before attacking others, but even that more than makes her worth her points. And you're absolutely incorrect that Morsbane reaches his full potential without Ulginesh. One negation attempt for only half of an order marker is much stronger than one negation attempt for a full order marker.

Aldin: Chardris does very little that Jorhdawn and Arkmer don't already do (not nothing though - he's better than Jorhdawn against any non-clumped figures, and better than Arkmer against Drake, et al). But Chardris gives you one more option for Ulginesh to activate before you don't have two useful wizards to activate. That extra toughness is pretty important.

---

The problem with Acolarh is you're not getting a 22% chance of recouping all wounds. You're only getting a 22% chance of recouping killing wounds. With the high-life elf wizards, that's a relatively small share of the wounds your army receives.

For this reason, Acolarh is actually more useful in an army with WoA or AAs. In those armies, every wound is a killing wound, and Acolarh gets a lot more chances to roll the dice and earn her points.

Unlike Morsbane, who I argued should absolutely get a boost in the power rankings due to the arrival of Ulginesh, I don't think Acolarh is meaningfully boosted by the other wizards. His value lies in toughening up the elven squads.

I actually think Acolarh is the weakest D+ figure, and should probably be a solid D. It's hard to imagine an army of less than 700 points where he makes any sense.
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  #28  
Old February 3rd, 2009, 08:28 AM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
The problem with Acolarh is you're not getting a 22% chance of recouping all wounds. You're only getting a 22% chance of recouping killing wounds. With the high-life elf wizards, that's a relatively small share of the wounds your army receives.

For this reason, Acolarh is actually more useful in an army with WoA or AAs. In those armies, every wound is a killing wound, and Acolarh gets a lot more chances to roll the dice and earn her points.
Hmm. I must counter with the argument that when an elf wizard is saved by Acolarh, it's probably going to put down a whole lot more hurt than if a WoA or AA is saved. I know when I'm playing the elves, I'd much rather lose my squaddies and make my saving roles on my wizards, and when attacking I'd rather the squaddies get the saving roles. The reason being that most times, the wizard can do more damage than the squad figure in a turn. I must also argue your logic in the second paragraph. It is true that every wound against a squad figure is a killing wound, and that Acolarh would roll more often with a bunch of squads than with the wizard clump. However, every saved roll for a squad figure negates only one wound. Each and every time, only one wound. With the multi-life wizards, the potential is there to negate more than one wound with a saving throw. The elves also do not have an extraordinary defense (2 and 3 for Ulginesh, Emirroon, Chardris and Jordhawn) and often take more than one wound as their deathblow, making a saving throw even more valuable. I would have to say that it is worth more to roll for a wizard than a squad figure.

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  #29  
Old February 3rd, 2009, 09:19 AM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

As I noted in my earlier post, Morsbane, Acolarh and Chardris are all a significant step below the other five. Of the three, Chardris is the least likely to appear outside of an Elf Wizard army, thus Morsbane and Acolarh gain points for being more flexible. Additionally, while Chardris can only deal damage - already accomplished by Jorhdawn and Arkmer - Morsbane and Acolarh have additional use.

Next I consider who my opponent will target. In most E-Wiz games I've played, KG was the first to go. She's got low defense, low life and boosts the Elves around her. Now imagine Acolarh in the same army. Do you still target KG? The knowledge that she has a decent chance of surviving a killing blow at least forces you to consider trying for Acolarh first - who may even be boosted by KG. Either way, it puts off the turn when your foe assaults your heavy hitters.

Morsbane offers a 25% chance, in addition to his melee attack, to do something really ugly to an opposing unique figure. The units that really give the Elves fits (Q9, Nilfheim, etc.) become much less effective in their anti-Elf role if they are negated. (And even less effective if they're dead).

So why pick Chardris? One more way to deal damage? The Elves have that. Give them something that will make them shine. Vote Morsbane and Acolarh for Elf War Council

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  #30  
Old February 3rd, 2009, 11:09 AM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

Interesting discussion, folks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tai-Pan View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
The problem with Acolarh is you're not getting a 22% chance of recouping all wounds. You're only getting a 22% chance of recouping killing wounds. With the high-life elf wizards, that's a relatively small share of the wounds your army receives.

For this reason, Acolarh is actually more useful in an army with WoA or AAs. In those armies, every wound is a killing wound, and Acolarh gets a lot more chances to roll the dice and earn her points.
Hmm. I must counter with the argument that when an elf wizard is saved by Acolarh, it's probably going to put down a whole lot more hurt than if a WoA or AA is saved. I know when I'm playing the elves, I'd much rather lose my squaddies and make my saving roles on my wizards, and when attacking I'd rather the squaddies get the saving roles. The reason being that most times, the wizard can do more damage than the squad figure in a turn. I must also argue your logic in the second paragraph. It is true that every wound against a squad figure is a killing wound, and that Acolarh would roll more often with a bunch of squads than with the wizard clump. However, every saved roll for a squad figure negates only one wound. Each and every time, only one wound. With the multi-life wizards, the potential is there to negate more than one wound with a saving throw. The elves also do not have an extraordinary defense (2 and 3 for Ulginesh, Emirroon, Chardris and Jordhawn) and often take more than one wound as their deathblow, making a saving throw even more valuable. I would have to say that it is worth more to roll for a wizard than a squad figure.
I agree with almost every substantive point you make here, and yet I still stand by my conclusion that Acolarh is far more useful in a WoA/AA army than in the wizard army.

You're right that (for example) if I have a 1000 point elf army with squads and wizards, and I could choose to save all my good Acolarh rolls, I would probably spend most of them on wizards. Probably.

However (and this is a side point, but bear with me a moment), the value of a wound to your heroes is not all that out of proportion to a wound to a squad figure. Each of Jorhdawn/Morsbane's wounds are 20 points, in a sense. Less for Chardris or Emirroon or Arkmer (Ulginesh is obviously the man, let's set him aside). An Aubrien Archer's wound is 23.3 points, more than any of them. A WoA is lower, 16.7; same as Arkmer. Still, they're all in the same level. No DW9k 140 point wounds, or Marcu Esenwein 3.3 point wounds. So, you really need to be avoiding multiple wounds in order to make the revival reliably more useful than reviving a squad member.

But that argument is really missing the point. The point is not whether you would rather revive a squad member or a wizard hero. The point is, in what situations can Acolarh earn his points? This is actually a pretty similar argument to the arguments for and against using the Marro Hive. And the conclusion is roughly the same as well - you need to roll for (Hive Rebirth/Leaf of the Home Tree Aura) a LOT of times in order to reliably justify the purchase price. The only way to get a lot of rolls is to have a lot of figures. That means squads.

In a wizard army, if you're well-positioned and Acolarh is one of the last wizards standing (both fairly reasonable assumptions), and nobody gets Chomped/Acid Breathed/etc, you will get something like six chances at a first revive, plus additional chances for every success you have. That's going to get you, on average, something under 1.7 successful revives. If we assume those average 2 wounds apiece (a bit optimistic, but reasonable), that's 3.4 wounds, for a total revived point total of something like 70 points. That's less than 110, obviously...

Now, consider Acolarh in an army with a mix of WoA and AAs. 400ish points of those can pretty much fill a start zone - let's just call it 20 figures, with an average point value of 20 per figure (makes for a 510 point army). Now, we're looking at something like five and a half successful revives over the course of the game, for (drum roll, please) about 110 points revived. I swear, I did not work backwards to get that number, it just happened to come out that way. So, in that situation (which is just about ideal) Acolarh can just barely justify his purchase price.

Last edited by dok; February 3rd, 2009 at 01:06 PM. Reason: typo
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  #31  
Old February 3rd, 2009, 11:18 AM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Next I consider who my opponent will target. In most E-Wiz games I've played, KG was the first to go. She's got low defense, low life and boosts the Elves around her. Now imagine Acolarh in the same army. Do you still target KG? The knowledge that she has a decent chance of surviving a killing blow at least forces you to consider trying for Acolarh first - who may even be boosted by KG. Either way, it puts off the turn when your foe assaults your heavy hitters.
Yes, a wise opponent will take out KG before taking out anyone next to KG. However, as my previous post shows, the same does not apply to Acolarh. A wise opponent will go after KG, then get right to the hitters - or even go straight for the jugular and attack Ulginesh. Acolarh is not, statistically speaking, a major threat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
So why pick Chardris? One more way to deal damage? The Elves have that.
True, although he's their only potential strength 5 special attack, which is nothing to sniff at.

Broadly, I agree with you, but consider this - say you're facing a common squad enemy, and you have Jorhdawn, Arkmer, and Morsbane, but no Chardris. Your opponent only needs to kill 1 of Arkmer and Jorhdawn, and you're reduced to only one ranged attack per order marker. Now, thanks to KG and Arkmer's staff, that probably means 8 wounds (KG and Jorhdawn), but still, it's a significant vulnerability. Adding Chardris takes you up to 13 wounds. At that point, your opponent may decide that going directly for Ulginesh makes more sense, which means you're forcing your opponent to maneuver around more, and attack a higher defense figure.
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  #32  
Old February 3rd, 2009, 11:23 AM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
So why pick Chardris? One more way to deal damage? The Elves have that. Give them something that will make them shine. Vote Morsbane and Acolarh for Elf War Council
I'd argue that "one more way to deal damage" should be one of the highest priorities for an Elf Wizard army. Never mind all the manoeuvring and defending and reviving, to win a game you have to deal damage. If I was facing an Elf Wizard army that had only Jorhdawn and Arkmer as the offensive options for Ulginesh, there's a good chance I'd devote my first strikes to eliminating Arkmer, regardless of whether Acorlarh and Kyntela are hanging around (and assuming an Ulginesh assassination isn't on the cards). Once Arkmer goes, I have very little to be afraid of in punch-per-turn terms and I can spend the rest of the game dealing damage faster than I take it.

The Elf Wizard army's big weakness is that it gets weaker as it loses figures. I think Chardris is needed in that third non-Ulginesh spot for the army to be able to keep attacking strongly for anything like enough of the game.

Edit: Somewhat 'd
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  #33  
Old February 3rd, 2009, 11:42 AM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

Let's talk E-Wiz for a second.

Ulgy 150
Jor 100
Ark 50
Emi 80
KG 20

There's the 400 point core. As Elves die Jorhdawn loses attack (eventually), Ulginesh loses units to activate, Arkmer loses defense (potentially) and Emiroon loses summoning power (potentially). Only Kyntela Gwyn fails to suffer from the loss of Elves around her. As Ollie argues, this is the big weakness of the E-Wiz Crew.

So who to add that addresses that weakness?

-Chardris, who loses power just like Jorhdawn?
-Morsbane, who never loses power due to the loss of other Elves?
-Acolarh, who helps retain the power of the E-Wiz Crew by increasing their survivability?

Acolarh is arguably more expensive than his value to the army. Worse, he can't be added to the 400 point core in a 500 point army. Of course, a single save in a key moment might also be the game winner. Chardris, obviously, doesn't address the weakness other than by adding life points. Morsbane is the winner here. Same endurance as Chardris, but with a power that does NOT suffer the same failing as the rest of the Elves. Further, the worry that Morsbane doesn't help versus common squads is hardly a ringing endorsement for a figure with a strength five special attack, mostly wasted against common squads anyway.

Another nod to Acolarh, by the way, is the speed boost he adds to Emiroon, et al. Two extra move is nothing to scorn.

~Aldin, enjoying the discussion

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  #34  
Old February 3rd, 2009, 12:07 PM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

On a related note, when playing an all elven army, including Syvarris, Sonlen, and squaddies, the potential/value of Kyntela Gwyn, Arkmer, and Acolarh rises because they all have a special ability that benefits or is benefitted by all elves, not just elf wizards. That ups KG, Arkmer, and Acolarh a little bit in the standings.

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  #35  
Old February 3rd, 2009, 01:03 PM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
-Morsbane, who never loses power due to the loss of other Elves?
As I argued in the power rankings thread, the ability to use Morsbane as part of a 1-2 punch on a single order marker is what takes him from his old D+ (read: useless) status and elevates him to a playable figure. Even once he's in position, Morsbane depends on Ulginesh and the continued viability of at least one striker (Arkmer, Chardris, Jorhdawn) to retain his value. Plus KG helps his defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
-Acolarh, who helps retain the power of the E-Wiz Crew by increasing their survivability?

Acolarh is arguably more expensive than his value to the army.
Yes, that's basically my arguement. I'd much, much rather have two squads of WoA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Chardris, obviously, doesn't address the weakness other than by adding life points.
Which are pretty important, actually. That said, Morsbane gives you those same life points, so it's a wash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Morsbane is the winner here. Same endurance as Chardris, but with a power that does NOT suffer the same failing as the rest of the Elves. Further, the worry that Morsbane doesn't help versus common squads is hardly a ringing endorsement for a figure with a strength five special attack, mostly wasted against common squads anyway.
I disagree on two counts. First, that strength five special attack is awfully useful against a number of common squads, including Minions, Sentinels, rats, Knights, Hounds/Deathstalkers, and Gorrilinators. Second, against a lot of unique squads and heroes, an attack of 5 is more valuable than Morsbane's rod of negation.

Just to be clear - all told, I'm not convinced you're wrong. Morsbane might be more useful in general than Chardris. I'm just not convinced you're right, either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aldin View Post
Another nod to Acolarh, by the way, is the speed boost he adds to Emiroon, et al. Two extra move is nothing to scorn.
Agreed; this is a nice boost. On certain maps this could be a big help. But I have a very hard time arguing that, in general, it justifies his cost. And again, this might be more useful in squad armies, where you can give AAs a threat range of 14.
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  #36  
Old July 7th, 2009, 01:05 PM
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Re: The Book of Acolarh

Is damage taken from Countestrike susceptible to being canceled by Leaf of the Home Tree Aura?

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