Classic Heroscape Power Rankings

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Non-comprable, entirely different purposes - Zelrig exists to nuke swarms, Braxas is best at slaughtering elite squaddies. Braxas is also a bit more generally versatile, but Zelrig's niche is arguably more useful and he's also cheaper.

Well, Hatamato Taro and Major Q9 serve different purposes, but can still be compared right?

Doesn't matter the unit's role, what matters is the unit's value.

What would a formula for determining value look like? Maybe:
(Efficiency in role + strength of other options in role + strength in current meta + strength in map/glyph pool + strength in format)/ cost.

Not a real equation, I know, but it includes the major points to consider when examining a unit.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Well, Hatamato Taro and Major Q9 serve different purposes, but can still be compared right?

I wouldn't say directly comparing them was fair, actually - direct comparison and independently assessing their value when it comes to their own purposes - in that case to be 'absolute horse****' and 'a living god' respectively - are two very different things.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I wouldn't say directly comparing them was fair, actually - direct comparison and independently assessing their value when it comes to their own purposes - in that case to be 'absolute horse****' and 'a living god' respectively - are two very different things.

What about comparing their independently assessed values?

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

What about comparing their independently assessed values?

Can be done, but wouldn't really tell you much since you'd draft them for completely different things anyway - for example, you'd draft Zelrig if you wanted to firebomb a start-zone full of commons and Braxas if you wanted to murder elite squaddies, or you'd take Q9 if you're an uber-competitive bastard and Hatamoto if you were having a brain-bleed. A comparison could be made, but they're not in competition anyway when it comes to drafting, so what's the point?

[flameslayer93]

I need to take Hatomato Taro army to a tournement now. Thanks @Lazy Orang .

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

I need to take Hatomato Taro army to a tournement now. Thanks @Lazy Orang .

Already done it. I'm slowly working my way through all of the units. :P

~Dysole, who has brought an army with Sudema and Dünd in it to a tournament and an army with Sudema and Runa in it. Ignore that both tournaments were absolutely not double blind.

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by Dysole

Already done it. I'm slowly working my way through all of the units. :P

~Dysole, who has brought an army with Sudema and Dünd in it to a tournament and an army with Sudema and Runa in it. Ignore that both tournaments were absolutely not double blind.

I’ve done Groks twice, and both times did miserably bad. Don’t think I’ve used outright garbage units in a while lol.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by Dysole

~Dysole, who notes Cleon may have wanted Nilf over Braxas had he fought her in 2016.

Haha i suppose so

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

I’ve done Groks twice, and both times did miserably bad. Don’t think I’ve used outright garbage units in a while lol.

I took Hatamoto Taro to the last DFW Tournament (albeit it was the CUC version that changed his aura for Samurai to work against all attacks) and did pretty well, although Hatamoto still died horrendously in a single turn both times that I used him and proved to be useless anyway.

[Cleon]

Originally Posted by OrcElfArmyOne

Lower figures doesn't do much for Kyrie because 3x Heavies/Grim, 3x Dwarves/Mogrimm, 3x Knights/Gilbert, 3x Romans/Marcus/MBS, 3x Blades/Grim/Tornak, 3x Nagrubs/ TKN, etc. are still better. 3 attacks per turn is real weak.

I agree that Sentinels don't die to Q9... but Q9 also doesn't die to Sentinels. 3 attacks of 3 vs 7 (most likely 9)? Not too great. Minions are certainly better in this regard.

While B+ are still competitive to a certain extent, you don't tech your army to handle B+ units. Kyrie are niche enough now that it doesn't really give Braxas an advantage over Nilf for having a better matchup against them. Again, the better matchup over KMA is absolutely huge. This is why I never got why people ran Braxas with PKs: both struggle vs bonding melee but do great vs KMA/range. They help with 4th/10th/Stingers, but it still lacks a consistent melee answer.

Last point is on Hounds: they have several key advantages over Kyrie, from greater speed (despite sometimes inconsistent and no flying), an excellent ability in Plague, similar stats, resistance to auto-kills that are devastating for higher-costed squads, and yet are cheaper. They are also a B+ and seen equal to or more than in the meta than Kyrie. FWIW, Nilf handles the Hounds matchup much better.

Lower figures means less swarms and high numbers, and more expensive beefier figures, which is absolutely better for them. Those melee combinations are nice but they aren't abusing higher numbers that would be more a problem for the kyrie, instead the figure limitation means the rest of their army would have something more expensive which the kyrie want in a head to head.

I also just think we're going to disagree on the kyrie's power, regardless of any meta or matchup analysis. 6 minions vs. 12 knights in a vacuum I dont think is that bad for them.

Sentinels aren't amazing at killing Q9 (not much is) but i think Q9 is in the same predicament. 3 3 dice attacks or 5-9 low dice attacks into sentinel's defense is just okay. Also kyrie are single spaced flyers against a 5 move double spaced figure, there's a good chance some will have height. Kyrie are 3 attacks per turn, which is significant in high level play, 4's what you mostly see, but kyrie have real survivability, it helps how many attacks they will ultimately get. Unless Braxas is on the field , and also Cyprien and BWs.

I think I started out my original post wrong, I thought Nilf was already A, and I was arguing Braxas should be A as well. But because Nilf is A- it made it look like I was saying Braxas is better than Nilf. I'm not. I think Nilfheim should be A and Braxas as well. Which is better? I think Nilf is better, but Braxas is still very good, it's close.

And it's worth mentioning just because something's the same letter grade doesnt mean they're exactly even, it means it's almost equal or close, or that it's not a significant enough difference to be a different letter grade. Like 10th i think should be A, but still think 4th are better, just not significant enough to push a different letter grade.

Hounds we'll disagree on. I think their weakness to soulborgs (which are abundant in competitive play) and potential movement stunt are pretty big problems. Also being a double spaced squad has its number of problems on a lot of maps. I think it would've been a lot cooler if they made the Hounds have absurdly high movement on very high rolls. Like on 16-19 they have 10 move and on a 20 they have like 12+ or something, that would've been dope. Would've made their low rolls more acceptable.

We have disagreements, but good discussion nonetheless.

[IAmBatman]

Hatomato Toro's not too bad at all in 2,000 point single general army builds.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

Hatomato Toro's not too bad at all in 2,000 point single general army builds.

Ah, yes, I play them all the time!