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  #4357  
Old November 12th, 2014, 02:14 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
There's nothing stopping an SoV judge from submitting a design, whether his own or someone else's. Also, nothing is stopping someone from re-submitting a design that's been modified. Or anything stopping anybody from submitting a design created by someone else.

It's always been that way.
Ok so why Caps says "We are not in the business of changing other people's custom."

Clearly there is some misunderstanding and miscommunication right there.

The problem is that the SoV review takes to much time. And if it's a no it's a complete waste of time as judges don't do nothing to improve the custom.

Either the SoV judges just give a sceal of approval, then this have to be waaaaaaay faster (I don't think 6 judges are needed, to me 3 is enough, it's just my pov).
Either SoV is part of improving the custom as long as it passes first review, then they can take one year but they should give help to the custom creator.

But as what it is now it's more something like:
judge: "I reviewed your custom and sorry this is a no"
customer: "ho I totally forgot about this guy"

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  #4358  
Old November 12th, 2014, 02:24 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

There's no miscommunication. At least, not between myself and Cap. If you think there is a worthy candidate unit that is being overlooked, then feel free to nominate it. Others have done so.

If you feel like a group should be workshopping units, and working publicly and quickly, as a group, to improve them, and if you feel like that would lead to something good for the hobby and it isn't being done, then start it. Be the change you want to see. Nothing is stopping you.

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  #4359  
Old November 12th, 2014, 02:32 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
But the problem with this is that it takes too much time. You have to wait something like 2 years to see your work go throught, it's longer than serious stuff like job or studies...
Could it be that SoV and C3V take a long time because they treat what they do as "serious stuff?"
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  #4360  
Old November 12th, 2014, 02:34 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
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I think a better system would be, instead of spending all the energy and time to say "no the custom is not perfect", actually spend it to make the custom perfect.
It's an interesting criticism, but here's the issue. That's exactly what C3V is for. There's no reason to have two systems to do the same thing.
Of course there is a huge reason: everyone can have his custom in semi-official scape.
If you don't think this is a very important reason then I think we pretty much disagree on everything.

SoV is supposed to be the way for the little guy with his little custom to have an impact on the community by making his custom semi-official.

If the custom have to be perfect at the beginning of the process then it's bad because not anyone can do a perfectly balanced and playable custom.
Here is the issue. The SoV is not the beginning of the process. The SoV is the end of the process.

Making a good unit takes time. It just does. The SoV is not about making a list of "good ideas" as you call them. It's about making available truly excellent custom units.

No one here can change the fact that good customs take a lot of time and effort.

If you want to make a great custom unit, you are going to have to be willing to be in it for the long haul--to commit time and effort, to ask for people to playtest your ideas, and really listen to hard criticism--and then to come to the SoV with a well crafted, fully finished design.
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  #4361  
Old November 12th, 2014, 02:35 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
I think a better system would be, instead of spending all the energy and time to say "no the custom is not perfect", actually spend it to make the custom perfect.
It's an interesting criticism, but here's the issue. That's exactly what C3V is for. There's no reason to have two systems to do the same thing.
Of course there is a huge reason: everyone can have his custom in semi-official scape.
If you don't think this is a very important reason then I think we pretty much disagree on everything.

SoV is supposed to be the way for the little guy with his little custom to have an impact on the community by making his custom semi-official.

If the custom have to be perfect at the beginning of the process then it's bad because not anyone can do a perfectly balanced and playable custom.
But even the guy who have played only one game in his life can have a freaking good idea.

If you think the few guys in C3V (even how good they can be) can have as much good design ideas as the whole community then we disagree once again. But I think you are wrong and not me.

The Bootcamp of Valhalla is basically a second C3V because they don't start with an already existing custom, they are creating everything, it's what we did with Kheris and Asterios.
But the problem with this is that it takes too much time. You have to wait something like 2 years to see your work go throught, it's longer than serious stuff like job or studies...

I don't ask you do create custom, I ask you to balance and make the custom playable, or at least give councils. Not just saying "this thing is not good, it's a no".
You say what is bad but you don't give any clue to improve, for the creator the custom was already perfect, so he usually doesn't know what to change, so he's blocked, then the custom is abandonned.

You are saying you are just a gateway, and you do nothing but saying YES or NO, ok with that, perfect. But then a gateway shouldn't take so much time, and energy.
Serisously one year for basically just applying a sceal of approval is too long. I agree that testing is long (you do too much testing imo).

There is no need to debate the results are here: look at the customs design I named then look at the figures who made it to sov, even if there are good SoV cards, I highly prefer the first set of designs, and I think I am not the only one.
We are missing potentialy great customs and therefore the system is bad.
So basically you are upset because we are not any of these:

I don't know what to tell you. We are very intentional about not being any of those. If you want us to be then you must not have read our mission statement.

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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
We are not in the business of changing other people's customs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Gur'vath, Green Wyrmling, Rat Swarm, Horned Skull Champion, Bulcaners of the endless sea, Kophawet, Tentacles of the Kraken, Shaitan, Wraith of Bleakwood, Kheris, Sundol, Kar-Su-Na, Gruoark
I would love to see many of these units come back in revised forms. Anyone who likes any of them could put some time and effort into it and resubmit them.
So you are willing that anyone who love this customs to change them and resubmit them (could be me or anyone).
If it could be me or anyone, why not you? You love them and tested them.
Because I only have so much time for Heroscape in my life and I spend that time testing units currently on my docket, and occasionally pitching in with things here and there in C3V.

I frequently encourage and aid designers in "remodels" of their units. Jarek Guy's resubmission was a result of such encouragement and Rorschack/Rampage was another. I have encouraged @robbdaman to tweak Gor'Vath and @Son of Arathorn to tweak Kar-Nu-Sa, as well as encouraging various community members to rework the Gatekeepers. In each case I not only encouraged them to rework but I offered specific suggestions about what could be different.

I simply don't play Heroscape often enough to test the SoV units AND test other units enough by myself to feel they are ready. It was difficult to make time for al'Kahora and has been impossible to find time for other units I wanted to submit.

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  #4362  
Old November 12th, 2014, 02:36 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
So basically you are upset because we are not any of these:

etc.
Ok then the problem is that you just take too much time to apply a sceal of approval.
That's why I am "upset".

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
I simply don't play Heroscape often enough to test the SoV units AND test other units enough by myself to feel they are ready. It was difficult to make time for al'Kahora and has been impossible to find time for other units I wanted to submit.
OK it's because you don't have time. I thought it was because "you are not in the business of changing other's people customs".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherman Davies View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
But the problem with this is that it takes too much time. You have to wait something like 2 years to see your work go throught, it's longer than serious stuff like job or studies...
Could it be that SoV and C3V take a long time because they treat what they do as "serious stuff?"
Wait 2 years to have a degree is ok, wait 2 years to see your Heroscape custom accepted is too long, by the time being you would not care anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
If you feel like a group should be workshopping units, and working publicly and quickly, as a group, to improve them, and if you feel like that would lead to something good for the hobby and it isn't being done, then start it. Be the change you want to see. Nothing is stopping you.
Man what do you think I do in the french forums?
We were working on a 3rd card to submit (goblin unique squad to make the HSB+Goblin army playable) it was starting to be good but we got bored up because having his custom accepted takes too much time. And by the time it takes the units may not be still avalaible enough.

Also we stopped working on Kheris after he had a NO as we still don't understand what was precisely the problem and we didn't know what to change without changing the original nature of the custom. So we choosed to not resubmit him and to keep him as he is.


Last edited by Foudzing; November 12th, 2014 at 02:55 PM.
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  #4363  
Old November 12th, 2014, 02:56 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sherman Davies View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
But the problem with this is that it takes too much time. You have to wait something like 2 years to see your work go throught, it's longer than serious stuff like job or studies...
Could it be that SoV and C3V take a long time because they treat what they do as "serious stuff?"
Yup! Playtesting takes time. If only the SoV (or the C3V) did not take care with playtesting, the process would be much faster.


Also, enormous praise and credit to @Scytale , who has been working very hard to bring down the amount of time it takes a unit to get through the SoV process. It still take a long time, but it's faster than it was. And I don't expect it will ever be truly fast.


Let's see how quickly you guys turn out maps in the Wargrounds of Scape thread - which has seen no posts in a month - because you wouldn't want to look too foolish for failing to deliver the service you are insisting upon here. As I understand the raison d'etre of that group - your group - it is that testing can and should be done expeditiously. Well, if you are living in a glass house...

The designs of the Age of Annihilation, and their ACES compatibility with VC
C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
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  #4364  
Old November 12th, 2014, 03:05 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Let's see how quickly you guys turn out maps in the Wargrounds of Scape thread - which has seen no posts in a month - because you wouldn't want to look too foolish for failing to deliver the service you are insisting upon here. As I understand the raison d'etre of that group - your group - it is that testing can and should be done expeditiously. Well, if you are living in a glass house...
I wonder who the last message of this thread is from.

Also it's not my group, Dok asked me to be a judge I accepted, as simple as that.

Just for your ignorance: if I fail to deliver my reviews within 4 months I am no longer a judge.
Maybe you should consider instauring such a thing in SoV.

I have until mid January to do 2 more reviews, I should be fine.

Thank you for your motivation speech.

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  #4365  
Old November 12th, 2014, 03:13 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

I'd just like to say that I am extremely appreciative of the SoV judges, who take a large amount of time out of their lives to do this for completely free.
@Foudzing , I am sure the judges would like things to move as fast as you would like them to. However, I am also sure a vast majority of the people who work hard to get high quality customs through VC also have lives outside of Heroscape. They have jobs, school, family, etc.
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  #4366  
Old November 12th, 2014, 03:16 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
If you think the few guys in C3V (even how good they can be) can have as much good design ideas as the whole community then we disagree once again. But I think you are wrong and not me.
A subset will not be as good as the whole, I agree with you there. But it is vastly more manageable. Whether or not the C3V is better off as a private subset or a public forum is a debatable point. It was designed by people other than myself before I became involved; I won't try to judge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
The Bootcamp of Valhalla is basically a second C3V because they don't start with an already existing custom, they are creating everything, it's what we did with Kheris and Asterios.
But the problem with this is that it takes too much time. You have to wait something like 2 years to see your work go throught, it's longer than serious stuff like job or studies...
You are mistaken if you believe that C3V units go through their system any faster.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
I don't ask you do create custom, I ask you to balance and make the custom playable, or at least give councils. Not just saying "this thing is not good, it's a no".
Here's the thing. You complain that the process is already too slow. If we had freedom to modify the customs, the process would be MUCH longer. You have worked with the French community to develop units; I was not privy to the internal conversations but I'm willing to bet that a lot of time and effort goes into each one. It's simply the nature of a group activity; with the countless directions designs could go getting to the point of consensus is really difficult. On top of that, testing to see if a custom is balanced is quite a bit different than testing a custom to determine future changes. At the very least, we would have to go through full testing after we settle on a design.

Changing the system to work with creators to find a way to make nearly any custom work is a fun thought, but it would be both impractical and damaging. First, have you seen how many custom creators there are on the site? If each one submitted one idea, how much work would we be stuck with? Look at how much time and effort has gone in to the development of the Kobolds in the Boot Camp thread. How many hundreds of such unit concepts would we have to go through that process with? It is also true that not everything should find its way into Fanscape. There are constant discussions in the Inner Sanctum about what should be allowed into canon and what not; we must consider the future of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
You say what is bad but you don't give any clue to improve, for the creator the custom was already perfect, so he usually doesn't know what to change, so he's blocked, then the custom is abandonned.
We Judges do what we can to elucidate what are concerns are. There are threads to solicit input on how to make improvements. Suggesting changes would be mostly pointless anyway; most likely every Judge would have completely different suggestions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Serisously one year for basically just applying a sceal of approval is too long. I agree that testing is long (you do too much testing imo).
Quality is our first priority. And second and third. Speed is fourth. If we do not deliver quality every time the whole premise of our system comes into question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
I highly prefer the first set of designs, and I think I am not the only one.
Then why aren't you doing something about it? Why are you putting the burden on us? You have as much ability to affect that as any of us Judges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
We are missing potentialy great customs and therefore the system is bad.
That will always be true. No system will generate every potentially great custom.

The problem here isn't the system itself; the system allows for all sorts of units. The problem, as you see it, is the fault of everyone, including yourself. If you want to see a custom enter the system, adopt it, solicit input, modify it, thoroughly test it, and submit it. Don't blame us if you fail to do so.
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  #4367  
Old November 12th, 2014, 03:19 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Foudzing, There is nothing in your post that I am not aware of already. I may be ignorant of some things, but nothing in your post specifically was news to me.

Wargrounds is your group in that you share responsibility for its productivity. We are all - in the C3V, the SoV, the WoS, and the other groups, too - sharing responsibility for productivity. I am also aware that your bylaws mandate productivity by the judges.

And yet. . . Where are you, as a group? Four total votes? I am utterly indifferent to where you are as an individual tester. The SoV judges have tested different numbers of units, at different speeds. Yet the group is judged by its overall productivity, as it should be.

It's hard, Foudzing. Group projects, particularly those with high standards, are hard. We do the best we can. The critique that the SoV is slow is fair, and would be equally true if you had leveled it against the C3V. It is slow!

We all do the best we can do. If that's good enough for you, fine, if not, that's ok too. Feel free to start your own group, or participate in a group started by someone else, or keep adding your (same) , or whatever you please.

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Last edited by Dad_Scaper; November 12th, 2014 at 03:20 PM. Reason: scytale ninja!
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  #4368  
Old November 12th, 2014, 03:27 PM
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper View Post
Let's see how quickly you guys turn out maps in the Wargrounds of Scape thread - which has seen no posts in a month - because you wouldn't want to look too foolish for failing to deliver the service you are insisting upon here. As I understand the raison d'etre of that group - your group - it is that testing can and should be done expeditiously. Well, if you are living in a glass house...
I wonder who the last message of this thread is from.
No longer.

Also, really D_S, 12 days into the month you come up with "no posts this month"? Don't quit your day job, because I think you're probably good at it.

FWIW, the WoS rules clearly lay out a 4-month judging period for a map - any map that has not been voted up or down by that period is evaluated based on the votes it has already received. WoS has existed for two months now, so the first three submitted maps are now halfway through their prescribed maximum judging period.

Based on internal discussions I know that several of the thus-far silent judges have played games on the maps up for review, but are taking their time to put out a vote... within the four month window.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Also it's not my group, Dok asked me to be a judge I accepted, as simple as that.
FWIW if it's anyone's group, the credit goes to Typhon2222, who was the one who pushed and prodded me to work with him on a charter and go gather a group of judges.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Foudzing View Post
Just for your ignorance: if I fail to deliver my reviews within 4 months I am no longer a judge.
Maybe you should consider instauring such a thing in SoV.

I have until mid January to do 2 more reviews, I should be fine.
FWIW you are not out as a judge after missing a single review, but yes, that is the basic mechanism.

I wouldn't presume to know what the best approach for SoV judging is - custom designs are not the same as custom maps. But the defined maximum judging period seems (so far) like a good model for WoS. If you think I'm wrong, I'd suggest you withhold judgement until the end of the first round of voting.
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