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  #349  
Old July 18th, 2014, 12:30 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

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Originally Posted by ollie View Post
I think the over-riding concern should be to make a natural version of fledgeling couterstrike.
I wouldn't say the overriding concern, but a major concern, sure.

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Some of the recent ones that are gaining traction don't do that, in my opinion, especially fixing the number of defence dice and demanding exactly one excess shield (more shields should be more gooder).
100% agreed.

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Originally Posted by ollie View Post
I'd put the at-least-half-shields in this camp too, although not quite as firmly.
Obviously, I feel that one is a little better in this regard. At-least-half shields seems like an intuitive way to say "objectively good defense roll".

How do you feel about the "counterstrike only on whiffed attacks" version? That gets rid of most of the Raelin synergy (i.e. you can't make your opponent whiff, no matter how much defense you have) but still feels pretty intuitive.

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From what I've seen suggested, I think the options should be limited to some combination of:
  • at most one wound,
I liked and still like this one. It's subtly pro-hero without being a huge deal, and it feels totally thematic and appropriate as a "fledgling" version of counterstrike.

That said, this was the original SoV submitted version (granted, with 5 defense, which makes the problem worse) and it was rejected because of overwhelming Raelin synergy against melee squads.

Now, granted, myself and others have pointed out that other builds (TSAs with Hatamoto, Warriors of Ashra, a few others) are also incredibly strong when backed by Raelin against armies that have nothing but melee normal attacks. But be that as it may, this is the problem that all these workshopped versions are seeking to solve.

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only affects commons
Similar in effect to the 1-wound limiter, but much less thematic IMO. I don't really see the point.

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at least two excess shields needed (probably in conjunction with at most one wound)
In addition to just being a very large nerf, this actually enhances the Raelin synergy. I don't like this one.

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only works on small and medium
I like this a lot and have almost brought it up as a possibility multiple times. Not only does it feel thematic, but it also seems like a nice echo of the Samurai limitation on counterstrike.

That said, it's very much like the "1 wound max" version, in that, while it's very cool and thematic, it doesn't actually do anything to resolve the Raelin issue.

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I think that the case that these produce figures that are well within existing anti-melee parameters is a strong one, although I also understand not wanting to keep pushing that if the sentiment is that it's likely to be unsuccessful.

What I want to suggest is to follow the point that Capsocrates makes about the stats not matching all that well between the wyrmlings and their dragons. The symmetry of 4/4 appeals as a similarity to Charos, but might breaking that symmetry and going with 3 defence make a more natural counterstrike viable?
I've thought about 4/3 as well - it's certainly an interesting way to work around the issues. But it just doesn't feel like a baby Charos to me at all. 4A/4D still feels like the best compromise between a Charos feel (which, as sparkle says, is probably best achieved by the 3A/5D stats that were submitted originally) and playability.
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  #350  
Old July 18th, 2014, 12:34 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Just a thought. Perhaps the hardiest of dragons would be better represented by an Uncommon Wyrmling? Then they could have more than 1 health.
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  #351  
Old July 18th, 2014, 12:39 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Fledgling Counter Strike
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent figure that is not Huge, if the attacking figure rolls no skulls and if you roll at least 1 shield, the attacking figure receives one wound.

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  #352  
Old July 18th, 2014, 12:44 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
I think that the case that these produce figures that are well within existing anti-melee parameters is a strong one, although I also understand not wanting to keep pushing that if the sentiment is that it's likely to be unsuccessful.

What I want to suggest is to follow the point that Capsocrates makes about the stats not matching all that well between the wyrmlings and their dragons. The symmetry of 4/4 appeals as a similarity to Charos, but might breaking that symmetry and going with 3 defence make a more natural counterstrike viable?
I've thought about 4/3 as well - it's certainly an interesting way to work around the issues. But it just doesn't feel like a baby Charos to me at all. 4A/4D still feels like the best compromise between a Charos feel (which, as sparkle says, is probably best achieved by the 3A/5D stats that were submitted originally) and playability.
Does a 3/4 stat-line feel like baby Nilfheim?

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I like 4/3, with a 1-wound counterstrike that only affects small or medium figures.

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  #353  
Old July 18th, 2014, 12:58 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
What I want to suggest is to follow the point that Capsocrates makes about the stats not matching all that well between the wyrmlings and their dragons. The symmetry of 4/4 appeals as a similarity to Charos, but might breaking that symmetry and going with 3 defence make a more natural counterstrike viable?
I've thought about 4/3 as well - it's certainly an interesting way to work around the issues. But it just doesn't feel like a baby Charos to me at all. 4A/4D still feels like the best compromise between a Charos feel (which, as sparkle says, is probably best achieved by the 3A/5D stats that were submitted originally) and playability.
Does a 3/4 stat-line feel like baby Nilfheim?
Relatively speaking? Yes. Tough defense is a defining characteristic of Charos.

Everyone is going to have different hangups, but to me, giving baby Charos Blue Wyrmling stats doesn't feel right at all.
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  #354  
Old July 18th, 2014, 01:05 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

I think 4/4 was fair for these guys. The counterstrike stunk a bit with the "no skulls" condition. We will try this version again, Raelin on GW side for that game
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  #355  
Old July 18th, 2014, 01:32 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

How about something like giving the melee figure a chance to kill the wyrmling before they "set" themselves for a counterstrike:

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE

When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an attacking figure that was adjacent to this Green Wyrmling prior to this turn, if any excess shields are rolled the attacking figure receives one unblockable hit.

It is like any kid you teach how to punch, they need time to setup. Counterstriking is an art that needs time to master, that is why so few figures have it. The wyrmlings haven't fully mastered their ability to quickly counterstrike.

Last edited by Gurei-Ornery; July 18th, 2014 at 01:37 PM.
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  #356  
Old July 18th, 2014, 01:34 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Interesting. Very clever. Maybe too finnicky though.

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  #357  
Old July 18th, 2014, 01:38 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

(Split original post)
Another thought to try to capture the "fledgling" theme is to force a choice of either defending with full dice with no chance for CS or half the dice rounding up (which would be 4 with height and Raelin or 3 with height if we went back to 5 defense) for the chance to CS.

FLEDGLING COUNTERSTRIKE
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent attacking figure, before attack dice are rolled, you may choose to half the number of dice you roll, rounded up. If you do, if any excess shields are rolled the attacking figure receives one unblockable hit.
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  #358  
Old July 18th, 2014, 01:41 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

I'm not totally getting this. What makes a strong version of these guys any worse than TSA x a billion plus Raelin? If we made the little CSers really weak against specials and range or something (perhaps giving them 4 move and a modified version of Wyrm bonding that allows only one attack per OM) they'd be as balanced and as situational as the TSA, even more so force army variety (all melee is gutsy but it's still very lackluster in terms of play) and add more to the "well shoot I have to make the most of all my units" feel you get when you play an all Wyrmling army?

Mimring>Krug. 'Nuff said.
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  #359  
Old July 18th, 2014, 01:43 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

Fledgling Counter Strike
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent figure that is not Huge, if the attacking figure rolls no more than one skull and you roll one or more excessive shields, the attacking figure receives one wound.

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  #360  
Old July 18th, 2014, 01:56 PM
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Re: Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
Fledgling Counter Strike
When rolling defense dice against a normal attack from an adjacent figure that is not Huge, if the attacking figure rolls no more than one skull and you roll one or more excessive shields, the attacking figure receives one wound.
This power has is functionally about the same as just one wound counterstrike. It's thematic but it makes little difference.

Choosing to roll fewer dice is also strange and probably not worth it for the most part.

I think the "start the turn engaged" counterstrike is an interesting idea. It doesn't really have memory issues so it should be possible and is suitably fledgling.

Raelin is going to be good with them because Raelin is good. They're really not any more melee punishing than so many other options and again it was only 1 judge who voted them down for power reasons in the first place. I do appreciate the interesting ideas being shared but I don't think it's being channeled in the right direction.
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