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  #2749  
Old October 5th, 2018, 01:33 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
Yeah, Tentacle + Arrow Gruts doesn't feel right to me either. I suggest disabling that.

Why does the sorceror have a melee attack of 4?
Yeah...I just don't know what other class really fits though, and there's already a precedent for weird bonding like LEGOS with an alien dude and Dead Knights with AE's. Doesn't make thematic sense...but it still works and it's fun.

As for the Normal attack. I don't really have a good reason for that. Orginally I had him at 3att/3def, so when I moved the def down I decided to give him +1 att. That's really it.

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  #2750  
Old October 5th, 2018, 01:35 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
This is a very mild comment on account of me not having the acumen to theorize about anything else, but since Shadow Summoning requires him to be unengaged then it should probably take place instead of attacking rather than after moving. You'll never be able to attack an enemy figure and summon on the same turn anyway, so changing it to replace the attack makes that fact a bit clearer while still functioning roughly the same.
Very good point. Nice catch.

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  #2751  
Old October 5th, 2018, 07:09 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

shadow made is clearly two powers hacked together to get around having to many powers per card. In fact the common heroes all seem to be really wordy for units where you could take turns with 4 different units.

I would highly recommend going back and making them all two (or less) simpler powers in the vein of the elementals or wyrmlings.

That said I love the theme. right now it does feel like you have lots of bells and whistles. If it was my design I would get rid of the re-casting and give the mage a way to do damage by destroying his creations like pelloth.

I would strait up get rid of shadowmade. Phantom walk is over used and lurk in the shadows make them good on shadow maps but is no use elsewhere. also unit table from range should be used sparingly otherwise it's a crutch for people who are not good with melee.

Im torn about how I feel about the interplay of units. Grab a unit to get it close, speed up the hound to engage and then boost your special attack. Seems neat but also a complicated turn with so many powers activating.


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  #2752  
Old October 5th, 2018, 09:59 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I agree with pretty much everything wriggz said.

The beast bonding issue isn't about thematic weirdness; I don't want to give the arrow gruts a cheap board control option. They're good enough already.

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  #2753  
Old October 5th, 2018, 10:03 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I'd ditch shadowmade and just use Phantom Walk.

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  #2754  
Old October 5th, 2018, 10:11 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

First up, I really love pseudo-squads; I think they are a design space ripe for more stuff. And the overall concept here is good.

I have to agree that 4 Attack on Xundar feels unnecessarily strong. Xundar's value is in his summoning and control. Give him a 3 Attack and be done with it.

There is a lot of text here, but ultimately each is just a variation on an existing unit. That's a really good idea, as it keeps the complexity down, despite the wordiness. I have to agree with wriggz on Shadowmade, though. It's taking what is already two powers mashed together (Phantom Walk) and mashing in one or two more, making an overloaded power that's too much to read and explain to an opponent. The shadow stuff is great flavor, but you already have tons of flavor here. If you really feel the need to have a shadow-based power, make it a separate one, and stick to just one effect.

I really love how the powers are boosted by other Shadows being adjacent to the target. It makes for some really interesting decision-making. On top of that, Tentacle Grab really compounds that with great combo potential. I don't like how Tentacle Grab is automatic, though, it feels like it's too good for that.

I agree with those that dislike Beast as the Tentacle's class. Of all the Shadows that one is the weirdest, and most potent to include in a bonding army. Give it a unique class.
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  #2755  
Old October 5th, 2018, 10:32 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Good feedback. I agree with Xundar's Attack to 3 and I can see what you mean by Beast bonding with the Gruts. Not that it's bonding weirdness but that they don't need to be any better. I get that. Any ideas on a "new" class for this odd creature? I'm having a hard time.

As for the Shadowmade ability, I was worried I might not have enough flavor which was mainly why I added it, but I can see that it's a little bit TOO much whereas Phantom Walk accomplishes the theme just fine. I have no problem coming back on that.

EDIT: I'm not concerned about the automatic Grab. Chainfighters have 6 move and the range is 3, and even then it's really high odds they get it. That's a much bigger threat range AND offensive potential ...so a 4 move tentacle that can grab from just 2 spaces away for an automatic grab doesn't seem so bad.

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  #2756  
Old October 5th, 2018, 11:05 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I agree with the suggestions on replacing Shadowmade. Phantom Walk could accomplish the theme if you wanted another power, but Xundar and the sculpts alone adequately evoke the theme. I don't think it's needed, personally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
EDIT: I'm not concerned about the automatic Grab. Chainfighters have 6 move and the range is 3, and even then it's really high odds they get it. That's a much bigger threat range AND offensive potential ...so a 4 move tentacle that can grab from just 2 spaces away for an automatic grab doesn't seem so bad.
I disagree. The Chainfighter can only place figures on the same level and has few synergies to take full advantage of that, whereas the Binder could be the first turn of three and place the figure on any level, with the other two turns benefiting heavily from the automatic grab with their adjacency boosts. I think that a D20-roll makes sense in this context.
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  #2757  
Old October 5th, 2018, 03:45 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
EDIT: I'm not concerned about the automatic Grab. Chainfighters have 6 move and the range is 3, and even then it's really high odds they get it. That's a much bigger threat range AND offensive potential ...so a 4 move tentacle that can grab from just 2 spaces away for an automatic grab doesn't seem so bad.
I disagree. The Chainfighter can only place figures on the same level and has few synergies to take full advantage of that, whereas the Binder could be the first turn of three and place the figure on any level, with the other two turns benefiting heavily from the automatic grab with their adjacency boosts. I think that a D20-roll makes sense in this context.
Yup to Astroking here. Also, you can take 3 turns with the Binders, and with no roll and no same-height limitations, you could easily steal a key figure and move it across the board, or dunk a key figure in lava, or steal a key figure from across the board and dunk it in lava. Definitely should have a D20 roll, and maybe a same-height restriction because even just moving it onto lower ground then hitting it with other shadows is pretty pretty good.

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  #2758  
Old October 5th, 2018, 03:47 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
EDIT: I'm not concerned about the automatic Grab. Chainfighters have 6 move and the range is 3, and even then it's really high odds they get it. That's a much bigger threat range AND offensive potential ...so a 4 move tentacle that can grab from just 2 spaces away for an automatic grab doesn't seem so bad.
I disagree. The Chainfighter can only place figures on the same level and has few synergies to take full advantage of that, whereas the Binder could be the first turn of three and place the figure on any level, with the other two turns benefiting heavily from the automatic grab with their adjacency boosts. I think that a D20-roll makes sense in this context.
Yup to Astroking here. Also, you can take 3 turns with the Binders, and with no roll and no same-height limitations, you could easily steal a key figure and move it across the board, or dunk a key figure in lava, or steal a key figure from across the board and dunk it in lava. Definitely should have a D20 roll, and maybe a same-height restriction because even just moving it onto lower ground then hitting it with other shadows is pretty pretty good.
I'd expect to see numerous playtests in your own customs thread that address this issue.

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  #2759  
Old October 5th, 2018, 04:07 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
EDIT: I'm not concerned about the automatic Grab. Chainfighters have 6 move and the range is 3, and even then it's really high odds they get it. That's a much bigger threat range AND offensive potential ...so a 4 move tentacle that can grab from just 2 spaces away for an automatic grab doesn't seem so bad.
I disagree. The Chainfighter can only place figures on the same level and has few synergies to take full advantage of that, whereas the Binder could be the first turn of three and place the figure on any level, with the other two turns benefiting heavily from the automatic grab with their adjacency boosts. I think that a D20-roll makes sense in this context.
Yup to Astroking here. Also, you can take 3 turns with the Binders, and with no roll and no same-height limitations, you could easily steal a key figure and move it across the board, or dunk a key figure in lava, or steal a key figure from across the board and dunk it in lava. Definitely should have a D20 roll, and maybe a same-height restriction because even just moving it onto lower ground then hitting it with other shadows is pretty pretty good.
I'd expect to see numerous playtests in your own customs thread that address this issue.
I agree, there should be a d20 restriction. However I don't want to see a same level restriction. It's one of the things I find most restricting, and annoying about the chain fighter, who is otherwise my favorite official design. I do thing it should have a restriction though. Limit it to 1 level lower or higher. You might never actually want to place them higher, but if all the same level, or lower places are already occupied, I feel that 1 level higher should be an option.
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  #2760  
Old October 5th, 2018, 04:19 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
I agree, there should be a d20 restriction. However I don't want to see a same level restriction. It's one of the things I find most restricting, and annoying about the chain fighter, who is otherwise my favorite official design. I do thing it should have a restriction though. Limit it to 1 level lower or higher. You might never actually want to place them higher, but if all the same level, or lower places are already occupied, I feel that 1 level higher should be an option.
Sure its annoying, but that is due to lava dunking. If you don't restrict it, you might find the it more annoying having to price him really high...

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