The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Yes, but for a squad figure the effect is no different from Tough. Whereas for a hero figure, the effect would be to negate 1-wound attacks while having no effect on 2+ wound attacks.

Grrr...lol...it took me a while, but I finally get it. Yeah I thought I had something there...but no that doesn't work.

[Scytale]

Warriors of the Great Axe Clan

The change to First Assault is a good one, but I still think you're making a mistake with 4 attack. Drop that to 3 and raise First Assault to 2. Make them more dependent on it, and the unit becomes much more interesting.

As for Shrug Off Pain, I like the power in concept, but as noted, it's wasted on a squad. And don't allow it to work on leaving engagement attacks; that's just Disengage most of the time. If you're insistent on giving them a defensive power, just give them a version of Sacred Band Defy Death and be done with it.

Overall the unit is coming together well. The change of personality is a good one that makes them feel like they fit into Jandar better.


Masha Shingai

Good changes here. I used a similar power to Awakened Fear on one of my own customs, so I know how tough that order marker restriction can be. However, in Masha's case it's a far better turn than my own 5-move/3-attack hero. Looking at all that, I don't agree with the 85 point price. I would pay 85 points just for his stats. Two potent abilities cannot be free additions to that.

I agree with the others that 6 Life/2 Defense doesn't feel right. None of his powers are directly dependent on his Life/Defense combo (though Awakened Fear is definitely worth considering). Change him to a similar Life/Defense combo that leans on defense. I would start with Life 2, Defense 5 (and leave Flaming Retribution as-is).

What world is he from?

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Masha Shingai

Good changes here. I used a similar power to Awakened Fear on one of my own customs, so I know how tough that order marker restriction can be. However, in Masha's case it's a far better turn than my own 5-move/3-attack hero. Looking at all that, I don't agree with the 85 point price. I would pay 85 points just for his stats. Two potent abilities cannot be free additions to that.

I agree with the others that 6 Life/2 Defense doesn't feel right. None of his powers are directly dependent on his Life/Defense combo (though Awakened Fear is definitely worth considering). Change him to a similar Life/Defense combo that leans on defense. I would start with Life 2, Defense 5 (and leave Flaming Retribution as-is).

What world is he from?

I had used Crixus as a comparison for pricing since their stats were originally the same, but Masha had less survivability against heroes and no bonding/gladiator synergy, and his defensive ranged power only works when he takes at least some damage. Given how Awakened Fear does also penalize your own figures, I can't say that I agree that 85 points is too low.

The change to 6L/2D was intended to address concerns that low-attack melee squads will struggle against him even moreso than normal. I can see the concerns about how 2 defense feels uncharacteristically low, though. Reversing the ratio is an interesting prospect, but do you not feel that 2 life is similarly too low for a large demon such as this?

I was planning on Feylund, since it's the generic fantasy world with all the supernatural Egyptian-styled units (so I figure a supernatural Japanese-esque unit would still fit), and Earth wouldn't work for a demon.

Edit: Gurei-Oni is also from Feylund, so it seems reasonable enough to me to say that Masha is from another continent on that planet.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

The change to 6L/2D was intended to address concerns that low-attack melee squads will struggle against him even moreso than normal. I can see the concerns about how 2 defense feels uncharacteristically low, though. Reversing the ratio is an interesting prospect, but do you not feel that 2 life is similarly too low for a large demon such as this?

Any other thoughts on this? I'd like to know if people feel like a low life/high defense ratio is either unfitting or too problematic against low-attack squad figures before I settle on which of my revisions of Masha to playtest.

[Just_a_Bill]

Growing up in 2180s Hong Kong, young Sherman Hiang was a slender, introverted boy with an affinity for fantasy creatures. He particularly loved dragons, so much so that his roleplaying friends called him “Sherm the Wyrm.” Unfortunately, life in secondary school was not kind to the boy, and over the years he grew increasingly hermited.

Upon graduation, Sherman was naturally drawn to apply to the region’s prestigious royal bodyguard corps known as the Dragon Guard. However, being a bit undersized, he was initially turned down for the training program until his father pulled some strings to get him in. Despite this unimpressive start, Sherman worked hard and quickly rose to the rank of Lieutenant. His successful but unexpectedly brief career in the DG ended when he sacrificed himself to protect a dignitary from a seasoned Krav Maga operative’s assassination attempt.

It was at that moment that General Aquilla rescued Lt. Hiang into a world he could scarcely have hoped actually existed. A world filled with unbelievable weapons, abilities, and creatures — including living, breathing dragons. Hiang had little use for other people at this point in his life, and Aquilla sensed this. As she predicted, Sherman would find himself at home in her menagerie of strange beasts, quickly developing a rapport with the many dragons, wyverns, and other flying amazements populating her army.

And so it was that Sherm the Wyrm found himself again serving as a Dragon Guard, this time in a truer sense than even he could have ever thought possible.

— — —

This was a unit I was creating just for myself (hence the rectangular card), but I starting liking his theme, appearance, and synergies so much that I started to wonder if he might have some SoV potential. If this turns out to be worth submitting, then I’ll also make a “real” card.


The miniature is from Heroclix, either Max Fury 019 or Shadow Council Soldier 009. They’re inexpensive, and checking a few days ago I found at least 50 available online. His colors are a nice fit for Aquilla.

DRAGON GUARD
Add 1 to Lt. Sherman Hiang’s Attack and Defense values while any friendly Dragon, Dragonborn, or Wyvern Hero is within 4 clear sight spaces of Sherman. After revealing an order marker on this Army Card, and after taking a turn with Sherman, you may take a turn with one Dragon, Dragonborn, or Wyvern Hero you control that is adjacent to Sherman.

WYRM RIDER
When a large or huge figure you control is adjacent to Lt. Sherman Hiang and that figure begins its normal move by flying, at the end of its move you may place Sherman on an empty same-level space adjacent to that figure. If Sherman is engaged when he is moved by Wyrm Rider, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Anyway, Sherm is obviously designed for OM flexibility in dragony/wyverny builds, and he also gets some movement synergy with Sujoah and other flying biggies. I wanted to keep his cost low enough to potentially support a few different builds, while also requiring some effort to successfully bond with some big units... so I deliberately made him have to stay close to a wyrmoid to keep his A&D up, and made the bonding work only when there’s adjacency. When Sherman wants to change which wyrm(s) he’s bonding with, he can use his turn to run from one to another just before the new one takes its free bonding turn.

FWIW, Wyrm Rider started out as an inverse version of the Wyvern’s TALON GRAB. This was inspired by the idea that Sherm’s unusual rapport with the wyverns would lead them to choose him as the only friendly figure they carry (for beneficial purposes), and his body armor would protect him from their talons. But then I eventually replaced the “fly over the top” part of that effect with an adjacency requirement, which plays better, and now it’s a bit less obvious where this came from. (But before you think of Wyrm Rider as being redundant with Talon Grab or Carry, note that Sherman can do his riding in addition to the Wyvern or Theracus carrying somebody else.)

In an earlier design iteration he also had RAPID FIRE (keep firing as long as his normal attack destroys an opponent’s figure), but I ditched that in pursuit of practicing restraint.

[Scytale]

The story describes the theme well, but it still feels weird having a sci-fi-ish unit focused on riding dragons from fantasy worlds.

Bonding with all dragonkind is really potent, but you did quite a lot to limit it, so it's probably not overpowered. Sherman is fairly costly himself too for what you get.

I think the Flying restriction on Wrym Rider is unnecessary, though it does a little to prevent him from being pulled to safety.

[Astroking112]

I like the concept, but I'm a little concerned about tacking on a ranged attack of 3 to the big Dragons like Nilfheim. Personally, I'd rather see him only bond with the Wyrmlings and Wyvern if possible, since those units could use the help a lot more. Granting another bonding option for Wyrmlings is particularly interesting, on the other hand, and it might make building an army around them more viable.

Dragon Guard feels like two powers in one. I would recommend splitting it to have one power boosting his stats when within 4 clear sight spaces of the Dragon/Dragonborn/Wyrmling trio, and another power letting him bond after an OM reveal and ending his turn adjacent to a Dragon/Wyrmling.

[caps]

This is a neat design, JAB, but I'm struggling with a few elements. It seems like it would be cleaner for the synergy in the first power to only affect Dragons--Dragonborn and Wyverns also being affected seems like overkill.

And then for Wyrm Rider, it seems like it would be cleaner for it to only apply to Large and Huge dragons.

[Just_a_Bill]

Great feedback as usual, guys; thank you.

Originally Posted by Scytale

The story describes the theme well, but it still feels weird having a sci-fi-ish unit focused on riding dragons from fantasy worlds.

Yeah, weird... kind of like an orc riding a dinosaur! But point taken.

Originally Posted by Scytale

I think the Flying restriction on Wrym Rider is unnecessary

I agree. For what it's worth, here's the history of how that developed.

Clearly there are a ton of non-flying large and huge figures that this should not work with (Krug? Jotun? yikes), and "large/huge + flying" seemed like an elegant way to narrow the field down to a small number of reasonable candidates: dragons, Racheim, Su-Bak-Na, Sujoah, Theracus, Ulginesh, and Wyvern. Initially I worded it as simply bonding with any "large or huge flying figure." The theory was, from a wording perspective, it should be just as legitimate to reference "flying figures" as a group as it is to reference "non-flying figures" on things like Throw and Knockback. However, from a practical standpoint, the phrase "flying figure" can be interpreted ambiguously: does it mean a figure that can fly or a figure that is flying? So to avoid resolving that question with a clunky patch, I just decided to require the figure to actually be flying, which felt more elegant.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I like the concept, but I'm a little concerned about tacking on a ranged attack of 3 to the big Dragons like Nilfheim. Personally, I'd rather see him only bond with the Wyrmlings and Wyvern if possible, since those units could use the help a lot more. Granting another bonding option for Wyrmlings is particularly interesting, on the other hand, and it might make building an army around them more viable.

I'm not sure it's nearly as worthwhile to bond with a Wyrmling, though. For one thing, when a 'ling bonds with Sherman, it gives up bonding with another 'ling (each requires an order marker). For another, those little guys cannot carry Sherman, and there's a mechanical thing going on here where Sherman runs up to a dragon, gives the dragon a turn, and then the dragon carries Sherm along with it so they are ready to do the same thing again on your next order marker. With non-carriers like the babies and Rhogar, the timing is different. You have to constantly run the wyrm out ahead of Sherm so he can use his turn to run up to it, then use the bonding turn to advance the non-carrier. It still kind of works, but the whole theme of dragon riding is lost.

It's interesting that your first reaction was "wyrmlings only" and caps' first reaction was "dragons only," while my own goal was to make Sherman work with everything that's thematically dragonlike. Heck, he can even grab Su-Bak-Na by the bones and go for a ride.

Beyond the dragon theme, I quite like the two-for-one aspect of double ridership with Wyverns and Theracus. That feels like a very unique design space, that comes about organically from the power rather than being explicitly allowed, and I would be a bit sad to lose that. Anyway, just discussing some of the background reasons here...

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Dragon Guard feels like two powers in one. I would recommend splitting it to have one power boosting his stats when within 4 clear sight spaces of the Dragon/Dragonborn/Wyrmling trio, and another power letting him bond after an OM reveal and ending his turn adjacent to a Dragon/Wyrmling.

Yeah, that's where it started. Then I thought I could combine them thematically and reduce the amount of text on the card while slimming it down to two specials. I was hoping that folks would chime in on whether this was overall an advantage or a disadvantage, so thus far that's 1 vote for "dis."

Originally Posted by capsocrates

It seems like it would be cleaner for the synergy in the first power to only affect Dragons--Dragonborn and Wyverns also being affected seems like overkill.

While I agree in principle, there's also the thematic consideration of mono-general builds. If the synergy is only with dragons, then you couldn't really get your points' worth from this guy in an all-Aquilla build. Part of what appeals to me about this design aesthetically is that, while several generals have a dragon and a wyrmling, only Aquilla has four different species that qualify and make story sense, and this meshes with the figure's obvious Aquilla coloration.

And of course I've already mentioned the Talon Grab + Wyrm Rider thing. I think there's a fun mechanic of moving your Wyvern-Sherman team across the map while also disrupting opposing figures. There's a feeling of lost opportunity in eliminating those unique capabilities and ending up with yet another hero that bonds with half a dozen other units for a free activation.

So maybe you guys can help me see the light on some of these suggestions that reduce the unique features... what's the offsetting gain?

Originally Posted by capsocrates

And then for Wyrm Rider, it seems like it would be cleaner for it to only apply to Large and Huge dragons.

It would be simpler, for sure. But again there would be essentially no place for this figure in an Aquilla build. It would feel like such a narrow niche figure to me if he only had value in multiple-big-dragon builds.

Okay, I hope this did not sound too resistant. I really am pondering the feedback, and have a couple of ideas for how to address most of the comments thus far....

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill

I'm not sure it's nearly as worthwhile to bond with a Wyrmling, though. For one thing, when a 'ling bonds with Sherman, it gives up bonding with another 'ling (each requires an order marker). For another, those little guys cannot carry Sherman, and there's a mechanical thing going on here where Sherman runs up to a dragon, gives the dragon a turn, and then the dragon carries Sherm along with it so they are ready to do the same thing again on your next order marker. With non-carriers like the babies and Rhogar, the timing is different. You have to constantly run the wyrm out ahead of Sherm so he can use his turn to run up to it, then use the bonding turn to advance the non-carrier. It still kind of works, but the whole theme of dragon riding is lost.

It's interesting that your first reaction was "wyrmlings only" and caps' first reaction was "dragons only," while my own goal was to make Sherman work with everything that's thematically dragonlike. Heck, he can even grab Su-Bak-Na by the bones and go for a ride.

Beyond the dragon theme, I quite like the two-for-one aspect of double ridership with Wyverns and Theracus. That feels like a very unique design space, that comes about organically from the power rather than being explicitly allowed, and I would be a bit sad to lose that. Anyway, just discussing some of the background reasons here...

Bonding with a Wyrmling doesn't give you two turns with the baby dragons, but it does give you more flexibility in that army by adding a potential 7 Range 4 Attack (from height) to the mix. The lack of a carry is a good point against building that kind of army, although I still think that the idea has potential and would be a fun addition.

For what it's worth, I'm not a fan of bonding with Rhogar, either. It feels a little tacked on in comparison to the other dragons to me, and I'm not convinced that it'll make him significantly more viable or anything. I also don't like the idea of using a mount with somebody else already on top of it (such as Su-Bak-Na or Ulginesh) and would view this as a theme break.

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill

Yeah, that's where it started. Then I thought I could combine them thematically and reduce the amount of text on the card while slimming it down to two specials. I was hoping that folks would chime in on whether this was overall an advantage or a disadvantage, so thus far that's 1 vote for "dis."

To be fair, I'm not a fan of 2-in-1 powers in general. In my opinion, it actually makes the card more confusing to combine two different powers into one block of text, and I think that the sheer number of powers is not a good indicator of the complexity of a unit. I'm not sure how others feel, of course, but that's just my take on it.

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill

It would be simpler, for sure. But again there would be essentially no place for this figure in an Aquilla build. It would feel like such a narrow niche figure to me if he only had value in multiple-big-dragon builds.

I do not feel that this is a compelling reason to alter the design. While "General Wars" are fun, I don't think that it's worth making a design with that in mind.

[Just_a_Bill]

Again, thanks for the good and constructive criticisms. You've helped me see that my theme goals and flexibility goals were at odds with each other, and I've reset some expectations. Let's see how many of these notes can be addressed.

I've done the following:

• Eliminated all synergies with any species other than Dragon and (a bit of) Wyvern.
• Restricted the bonding to just Wyrmlings.
• Expanded the bonding to allow two Wyrmlings, to compensate for the limited bonders and having to compete with normal Wyrmling Bonding.
• Changed the restrictions on Dragon Guard to better reflect actually guarding dragons. Now instead of being about having dragons nearby, it's about targeting a threat to a dragon.
• Bumped the card's base Defense to 3, since Dragon Guard now only boosts attack dice.
• Turned Dragon Guard into a Special Attack to cap its dice at 4 in all situations. (I'm not completely satisfied with the "You can only use Xyz Special Attack if ... the targeted figure ..." language, but that wording template comes from Eltahale's Thunder Ram Assault SA so at least it has precedent in the canon. And it seems pretty clear.)
• Made Wyrm Rider a bit more flexible on the pickup options.
• Reduced the cost, now that there are additional limitations and a more apparent separation of uses in different types of builds, meaning I don't think all of Sherm's horsepower will be realized in any one build. (60 is a starting guesstimate that I have not really researched yet.)

DRAGON GUARD SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 7. Attack 4.
You can only use Dragon Guard Special Attack if a friendly Dragon is within range of the targeted figure’s normal or special attack.

SHERM THE WYRM
After revealing an order marker on this Army Card and taking a turn with Lt. Sherman Hiang, you may take a turn with up to 2 Wyrmlings you control that are within 4 clear sight spaces of Sherman.

WYRM RIDER
When a large or huge Dragon or Wyvern you control occupies or flies over any space adjacent to Sherman at any point during its move, then at the end of that move you may place Sherman on an empty same-level space adjacent to that figure. If Sherman is engaged when he is moved by Wyrm Rider, he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Better?

[caps]

I appreciate this iteration, JAB. Wyrm Rider is definitely better. I was okay with the bonding power affecting just Dragons; I'll have to think about the double wyrmling activation. It seems like a straight upgrade to Wyrmling builds that I'm not comfortable with. The special attack is fine and I like the theme, but I'm concerned there are odd corner cases and the wording, particularly considering Special Attacks with "Range Special"