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Competitive Armies Discussion Discuss, critique, and build ideas for tournament-caliber armies.

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  #229  
Old September 24th, 2012, 03:28 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers (+D1 & GC '10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
DeathChasers had a really strong showing at the Chicagoland September Showdown, going 5-0 for the win. He played,

Raelin
Nerak
Me-Burq-Sa
Ogre Pulverizer
Death chaser'sx5
555/21
Seems pretty viable at 500, too:

Raelin
Nerak
Me-Burq-Sa
Ogre Pulverizer
Death Chasers x4
500/18

Battle Rush makes pulling units from the back of the army much less painful. Vegetarian18 made excellent use of the DCs ability to both pod and stretch with this build (see his report). But the Chasers are also a new to the scene. I think Tier 2 is the right spot for this army for the moment.
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  #230  
Old September 24th, 2012, 03:45 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers (+D1 & GC '10)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shedim Kabal View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
DeathChasers had a really strong showing at the Chicagoland September Showdown, going 5-0 for the win. He played,

Raelin
Nerak
Me-Burq-Sa
Ogre Pulverizer
Death chaser'sx5
555/21
Seems pretty viable at 500, too:

Raelin
Nerak
Me-Burq-Sa
Ogre Pulverizer
Death Chasers x4
500/18

Battle Rush makes pulling units from the back of the army much less painful. Vegetarian18 made excellent use of the DCs ability to both pod and stretch with this build (see his report). But the Chasers are also a new to the scene. I think Tier 2 is the right spot for this army for the moment.
... and if you peel MBS off of that 500 point build, you have the 450 point build that Necroblade and orcelfarmyone's dad both made day 2 with at the 2012 Gencon main event.

Matthias Maccabeus won a 505 point event at some point by adding a 5th squad of Deathchasers to that build (or subtracting MBS from the 555 point build... whichever way you want to look at it).

Last edited by dok; September 24th, 2012 at 03:57 PM.
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  #231  
Old November 1st, 2013, 01:53 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers (+D1 & GC '10)

Well met!

It has been quite some time since this came out and, as dok once said, "
It's pretty surprising how out-of-date this article feels now." [In 2008, pages of posts ago.] The last post, by dok, was in 2012, and addressed the then new on the scene Deathchasers. So much has happened since then . . . most notably the Fanscape releases of C3V/SoV (VC). How do these units fit in? With reference to those units I chose to acquire (based on personal preference and limited resources):

In the department, we'll start with
Arashara Goshiri and Myrddin from the Heroes of Paizum and the newly released Azurite Warlord. [My bad - I've been calling him the Azure Warlord in all my posts since his release.] I haven't seen any Romans in the TAP list for ages, and they seem to have fallen totally out of favor. Jexik places them in Tier 2:

"Hax Romana
I've always liked making Roman Legionnaire builds. They're just too much fun. There's something about making an army with these guys that works perfectly synergy-wise but looks ridiculous on the battlefield that is uniquely Heroscape. I like to think that higher point totals are the reason we don't see these guys any more, but I worry that even if we rolled back to a 400-500 point standard, Stingers/Rats would walk all over them. It was cool while it lasted. (I think. I wasn't actually there). I'm mostly going to mention Legionnaire builds. With a little imagination, I'm sure you can all come up with Sacred Band/Parmenio/Valguard builds. I really like MBS and NGS though, so my personal preference leans towards the Romans.

Some people like tossing the AE in here, but I don't because it turns a normally simple OM placement army into a nightmare. In fact, a 4th Mass/Romans/AE army was my original inspiration for What's in an Order Marker? I wondered how you could get a bad or less awesome army with such great units. If you don't play MBS or the 10th/4th, it seems to have merit though.

Now that the great Zelrig scare of '08 has passed, these guys seem to be able to compete pretty well again."

I guess they're still Tier 2, although I think they could stand against the most common Tier 1 Heavy Grut, Greenscale, or Knight builds, and could rise like the aforementioned Heavy Gruts, with the inclusion of Myrddin (the Warlord Booster) and/or the Krav or a couple squads of 4th/10th/Stingers and/or the usual ranged Special Attackers (Qs, Dragons, etc.) in hybrid builds (in the right hands, of course), the whole concept of which has fallen out of favor compared to homogeneous 4-6 squad builds.

Moving on . . .

I don't have, and probably never will have , any
Zettian Infantry, so my Deathcommander Mark 3 and his Utgar Soulborg cohorts haven't seen a lot of action, except for a Deathcommander Mark/Zettian Guard build in which I couldn't decide on a role for them (to engage or not to engage, that was the question ). Tier 3?

Jexik's places the Wolves of Badru in Tier 3:

"Wolves, . . .
[T]hese squads suffer from the same two things. 3 figures and only one bonding option. They just don't quite measure up to the slower and tougher melee squads out there, but they can be decent if you feel confident in your dice."

I've liked, and played, them, casually and in tournament (B and lower only), with some success, but only after the appearance of the Werewolf Lord. Now, with the addition of Morgoloth, I'm thinking . . . Tier 2?

I own a couple of squads of
Cathar Spearmen, and they are undoubtedly Tier 2, maybe even Tier 1, in their own right, but also play well with Romans - see , above.

Finally, we come to the Varkanaans -
Varkaanan Quickblades, Varkaanan Swiftfangs, Varkaanan Darkclaws, Varkaanan Greyspears, Arktos, Bahadur, and Manauvi. I noticed that dok played them in an online tournament recently, with the ubiquitous Deathreavers :

"Online Heroscape Season 9 - standard bring 2.
  • Raelin (RotV), Major Q10, Marrden Hounds x3
  • Varkaanan Swiftfangs/Darkclaws/Quickblades/Greyspears, Deathreavers x2, Otonashi
4-1 (4-0 regular season, 0-1 playoffs), T-5th place.
Wins over KeepCalmAndDraftHulk, greygnarl, C$$, and Foudzing; loss to greygnarl."

I recently played, and won, games with and against them, and am somewhat aware of their strengths and weaknesses. I considered playing units (such as Deathreavers) with them, but couldn't bring myself to dilute Wolfpack that way, taking Arktos instead. At least Tier 2, possibly Tier 1?

So, there you have it -
my ill informed and totally subjective take on the subject. What's yours?
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  #232  
Old November 5th, 2013, 01:33 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers (+D1 & GC '10)

I don't really care about the C3V/SoV units and I know I'm not the only one. They are not canon. They are not official. They are customs. Well-designed and tested, they may be, but I will never accept them as anywhere on par with official releases.

If you feel differently, start a new thread. I don't think they should be incorporated into this one, though.

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  #233  
Old November 5th, 2013, 02:13 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers (+D1 & GC '10)

Well met!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The B.I.V. View Post
I don't really care about the C3V/SoV units and I know I'm not the only one. They are not canon. They are not official. They are customs. Well-designed and tested, they may be, but I will never accept them as anywhere on par with official releases.

If you feel differently, start a new thread. I don't think they should be incorporated into this one, though.
I'm sorry, B.I.V., but I actually went that route, creating a C3V/SoV Competitive Armies thread in the Customs forum, for example, but those threads have been largely ignored, in favor of posting C3V/SoV armies in their respective Classic forums. If the same layout as Classic were to be set up for C3V/SoV, you might have a point. As it is, I suspect this is just a matter of convenience. Of course, you not the only one who feels as you do (this issues has been discussed ad infinitum in other threads), but, given the recent increase in C3V/SoV-related posting in the forums, and the natural inference of C3V/SoC's general acceptance, I could just as easily say

"I really care about the C3V/SoV units and I know I'm not the only one. They are not canon. They are not official. They are customs. But so well-designed and tested, that they are on par with official releases, and are treated like "official" units by TDs and casual gamers alike, all across the country.

If you feel differently, start a new thread. I think they should be incorporated into this one, though."

and I hope someday to say

"I really care about Delta/Delta+ and I know I'm not the only one. It is not canon. It is not official. But so well-designed and tested, that it is on par with the official system, and is treated like the "official" system by TDs and casual gamers alike, all across the country.

If you feel differently, start a new thread. I think Delta/Delta+ should be incorporated into this one, though."

Didn't an important spiritual leader say something about rules being created for the people rather than the people for the rules. In this case, I believe there is a sizable minority (at least) that accepts the "Classic" forum being expanded to include C3V/SoV, and distinguishes that from any random custom maker posting his s%^& up in here.

Not a bad idea by the way, if I do say so myself, but would a recreation of the Classic Forum for C3V/SoV, and Delta/Delta+ (now or down the road), be worth the effort?


Last edited by kolakoski; March 12th, 2014 at 01:24 PM.
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  #234  
Old March 11th, 2014, 07:05 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers (+D1 & GC '10)

I would hope that those who take C3V and SoV seriously would think the new thread worth the effort (and Delta/Delta +). But I do understand BIV's point.

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Last edited by AMIS; March 11th, 2014 at 07:06 PM. Reason: Hoping those who care enough - work with those who care for other things.
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  #235  
Old March 12th, 2014, 04:44 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers (+D1 & GC '10)

Well met!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The B.I.V. View Post
I don't really care about the C3V/SoV units and I know I'm not the only one. They are not canon. They are not official. They are customs. Well-designed and tested, they may be, but I will never accept them as anywhere on par with official releases.

Almost 1 year ago, this issue was discussed (and a Pool created) here. The B.I.V's reference to "canon" is clearly in response to this post by Dadscaper from that thread, and the s it received:

The word you are looking for, kolakoski, is "canon."

Canon: the body of rules, principles, or standards accepted as axiomatic and universally binding in a field of study or art: the neoclassical canon.

The C3V and SoV units are now part of the Heroscape canon, in my humble opinion. "Official"? No. Canonic? Yes.

which was itself a response to the third item in the Poll:

1. "Official" is forever exclusively Hasbro (or its predecessors/successors) manufactured units.

2.
At some point in the future, if C3V/SoV can be trusted to produce units of comparable quality to "official" units, it would be acceptable to treat them as "official," and call them such.

3. Some other word should be found to codify the distinction between customs "vetted" by the C3V/SoV and the plethora of "unvetted" customs out there.

4. C3V/SoV can be trusted to produce, has produced, and will produce, units of comparable quality to "official" units, and are worthy of being called "official" now.

The results of that Poll were:

Never. 15 17.24%
Possibly yes - later.
5 5.75%
Find a different word.
45 51.72%
Yes - now.
36 41.38%

Just to see where we are, now that Dad has provided us with the aforementioned ed word, I've created a new Poll:

1. C3V/SoV (VC) is part of the canon of Heroscape.

2.
C3V/SoV (VC) is not part of the canon of Heroscape.

Last edited by kolakoski; March 12th, 2014 at 04:50 PM.
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  #236  
Old March 18th, 2016, 02:09 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers (+D1 & GC '10)

Figured it was a good time to bump this thread. Given the rebirth of the power rankings thread, it seems like the army tiers in the OP here should be a very useful way to help place/rank figures.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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