POLL: How important are the minis to you?

[lefton4ya]

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

Hero- Minis
Scape- Maps
See how the logic of not having minis in Heroscape is flawed?

Heroscape without minis also means heroscape without 3-d maps because maps without minis would be pointless. I guess you could use markers or "wood blocks" for each character, but then LOS and other issues (including half of the powers on cards) would again make the map pointless. To me, the buildable maps and miniatures are what make the game unique, in addition to the simple rules yet complex strategy that make the game awesome.

Summoner Wars is a classic example of a game designed like a miniature game without miniatures and is fun in its own right, and it is hard to say if it would it be more fun if there were miniatures on the board represented by cards off the board. Or if say Stratego, Warhammer/Battletech, or even Star Wars minis and Heroclix had markers or cards on the board instead of minis, IMO they would be only slightly less fun. But those are a completely different questions than heroscape without minis because it would by definition also mean no 3-d maps and therefore a differnt game altogether.

In summary, "How important are the minis to you?" is low for "collectable miniature games" like Warhammer & Heroclix because it doesn't really change the gameplay if you used markers or cards on the board, but "How important are the minis to you?" is EXTREMELY high for Heroscape because the game would cease to be playable without completely changing the rules and design of the entire game - which would not make it Heroscape anymore.

[RobWeaver]

Well, it is a miniature game - you have to have something to move around the board! But it doesn't have to be "those" minis. I'm all in favor of proxies and customs, always have been. I lost Abomination 2 years ago; Mittens has been standing in for him ever since. Dozens of old Grenadier orcs stand in when I need a 1000 points of orcs. My Jotun is a minotaur from the craft store. And so it goes.
What really sets HS apart is the board and the rules concept. A completely 3-D geomorphic board is a unique thing. It's what first sold the game to me. The rules likewise are simple enough to play without constant referal and open the door to all kinds of cross-genre play. HS is my go-to system when I want to mash-up anything: Romans and aliens, cowboys and dragons, ghosts and WWII soldiers, etc.
The minis are nice. In fact, when they were in production, they were some of the nicest prepaints ever for the price. But they're not a deal-breaker for me.

[davidlhsl]

I think this is an interesting question, because I had actually considered asking what people would think if Heroscape was given the Fantasy Flight treatment and converted to 2-D.

One of the things you would immediately lose in a 2-D conversion is the multiple height levels. A 2-D map can really only provide three height levels at best without the map looking like a topographic map, which would just be confusing.

Having the ability to create a wide variety of maps is important to me, so a 2-D conversion would have to be designed similar to Memoir 44. You'd have a basic terrain map, plus terrain tiles. However, this will present a dilemma: would you have special rules for each terrain type? In a 2-D conversion, this is very probable. When you combine this with the necessary rules you'd need for Line of Sight, you're automatically creating a more complicated rule set. This can be a lot of fun, mind you, but you lose the simplistic elegance of Heroscape. When you lose that, then you also lose Heroscape's unique ability to engage people of various gaming experiences, ages, etc. It becomes a game more for the serious boardgame and wargame crowd. You lose the widespread appeal the game currently enjoys.

Would I play a 2-D conversion? Absolutely, unless the rules became too complicated. Would it be as good as the Heroscape we know and enjoy? No, I don't think so.

[Lamaclown]

It was the minis that caught my eye when I saw it sitting on a shelf in Wal-Mart. If it weren't for that I probably wouldn't have noticed the game so I can reasonably state that I would not be playing the game now if it weren't for the minis since I don't come from a gaming background and would not have known of the game otherwise.

So, for me, no minis=no scape.

[AMIS]

I bought two packs of Zombie's before I ever thought of buying the game. This was actually to field a really cool looking Bloodbowl team. Not sure why I kept the cards, but I did.

About month later I found two set's of SotM in the clearance section of Wal-mart for $10 a pop and thought hey this would be a good x-mas present for my nephew and my kids. I also saw the Crusaders and Aquilla's Alliance around that time but since we did not try out the game we did not pick them up (today that still irks me).

Once we opened the game my eldest son took to the rules pretty quickly. I then realized I had the dozen zombies with those strange looking cards in with the Bloodbowl stuff and dug them out to find that the expansions did add an element to the master set.

What I'm trying to say, in a really long way, is that the mini's attract people to the game. The simplistic and (with other figures/cards) changeable rules keep them playing.

[nyys]

Gotta have the minis. I'll play games without them, but only if designed that way (like Summoner Wars or Warhammer: Invasion), otherwise a huge part of the experience is missing.

[Warlord Alpha]

Originally Posted by Tmac2200

To be frank, No minis=No 'scape.

Same here. I'm primarily a videogamer, Heroscape is the only serious hobby-type board game I've ever played (and probably ever will play unless my friends and I get into something else). The reason it had so much appeal was because of package design and the whole idea of the figures and the buildable terrain. Without the minis, the terrain doesn't mean anything, and without those two things I would rather just play a videogame that has absolutely no luck involved, costs less money to play, and takes no time to set up.

[nate the dawg]

Originally Posted by El Diabolo

I understand that... but I came to Heroscape through the route of playing abstract strategy games. I LIKE the minis, but for me Heroscape is a terrific core set of rules. It is not easy to write rules for such a naturally complicated game that are so consistent and intuitive. The key reason I am not a Warhammer player is I have never seen anyone playing that game without a rulebook on the table beside them. For me, one of the hallmarks of a GREAT game is that you can ultimately absorb the rules so well that you can put the rulebook away and fully immerse yourself in the experience. Heroscape accomplishes this brilliantly!

I agree with most of what you've said here, but my problem with the idea of non-mini Heroscape is that the miniatures are a part of the rules. LoS, clear sight, tight quarters - functions of the miniatures interacting with the battlefield - would all be diminished (if not entirely moot) were the minis replaced by something flat.

[El Diabolo]

Originally Posted by nate the dawg

I agree with most of what you've said here, but my problem with the idea of non-mini Heroscape is that the miniatures are a part of the rules. LoS, clear sight, tight quarters - functions of the miniatures interacting with the battlefield - would all be diminished (if not entirely moot) were the minis replaced by something flat.

Ok... what about 2 dimensional stand up minis... or stand-up abstract pieces like chess pieces. I guess this is related to my 2D proxy project which you can check out in my sig. I have always found that there are not really that many moments when having that exact piece changes the rules very much. Nilfheim doesn't fit on the bridge... Q9 can't see around his shoulder pads. But most of the time Heroscape is pretty easy to figure out without those exact references. I have played Heroscape (in a Denny's I might add) using poker chips and a flat LOTR map and had a blast! Sure it is a variation... but at least 90% of what I loved about HS was still present.

[SuperflyTNT]

Standies with art would be OK, provided the attacker could position the defender as they wish to allow for a clean LOS.

Short version:
Minis suck you in, the gameplay is what keeps you.

[Jexik]

I've played a lot with proxies (wrong minis). It's not so bad. I took the middle option.

[RobWeaver]

Originally Posted by El Diabolo

Ok... what about 2 dimensional stand up minis... or stand-up abstract pieces like chess pieces. I guess this is related to my 2D proxy project which you can check out in my sig. I have always found that there are not really that many moments when having that exact piece changes the rules very much. Nilfheim doesn't fit on the bridge... Q9 can't see around his shoulder pads. But most of the time Heroscape is pretty easy to figure out without those exact references. I have played Heroscape (in a Denny's I might add) using poker chips and a flat LOTR map and had a blast! Sure it is a variation... but at least 90% of what I loved about HS was still present.

I'm in favor of 2-D proxies, but recognize that they're going to present some problems and questions for LOS, facing, eligible hit zones, etc. Trifolds would be a little better in some ways. I'd rather use them in games where I'm friends with all the players. I think you should talk out the special problems before you start rolling dice, too. When it's crunch time is a bad time to be arguing about whether you can target a figure or not.