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  #1  
Old August 19th, 2014, 04:29 PM
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Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

Well met!

Dysole and I have been going back and forth a bit over this. What do you all think?
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  #2  
Old August 19th, 2014, 05:07 PM
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My Argument

Sage means you never have to worry about OMs, helps boost mutants and gives you a free d20 bonus. Helmut isn't even the best Zemo.

~Dysole, who notes Helmut has uses just not in the same arena as Sage
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  #3  
Old August 19th, 2014, 05:10 PM
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Re: Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

Sage is worth having in every single army, I would pick her if she was close to 300 in many of my armies. Helmut is worth having in some armies.
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  #4  
Old August 19th, 2014, 05:14 PM
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Re: Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

Helmut is harder to kill and a better cleanup hero.

Sage is dramatically better in basically every other way. She gives you total OM control without eating an X, instead of partial OM control while eating the X. She gives you +1 to all your d20s and a 2-pip initiative swing instead of only the initiative swing. Oh, and she's amazing with Mutants, too, but that's just icing on the cake. And she costs less.

Not even a comparison, really.
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  #5  
Old August 19th, 2014, 05:22 PM
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Re: Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

Personally, I take Zemo more often. But that's probably skewed by the fact that I'm a big Zemo fan. Also a lot of my games are playtests and I'm not likely to include Sage in those since she's queued up for reevaluation.
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  #6  
Old August 20th, 2014, 12:00 PM
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Re: Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

Well met!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Helmut is harder to kill and a better cleanup hero.


Sage is dramatically better in basically every other way.


She gives you total OM control without eating an X, instead of partial OM control while eating the X. She gives you +1 to all your d20s and a 2-pip initiative swing instead of only the initiative swing. Oh, and she's amazing with Mutants, too, but that's just icing on the cake. And she costs less.

Not even a comparison, really.
Where does Sage's "2-pip initiative swing" come from?

As to the rest: , of course. And, if I had stumbled over Sage earlier, we might not be having this conversation. As it is . . .

All of this has to do with next week's Gang of Four gathering, at which we will be playing chas'
Tig #2: The March Of Conquest. My current draft army, eschewing Mutants, broken combos, and power for its own sake, as well as in response to the scenario's Victory Conditions, is

Graviton (Franklin Hall) (400 points) MARVEL
She-Hulk (Jennifer Walters) (310 points) MARVEL
Baron Zemo (Helmut Zemo) (200 points) MARVEL
Punisher (Frank Castle)(180 points) MARVEL
Hawkeye (Clint Barton) (II) (160 points) MARVEL
Robin (Dick Grayson) (100 points) DC
Angel (Warren Worthington III) (90 points) MARVEL
Catgirl (Carrie Kelly) (60 points) DC.

Dysole has been advising me to take Sage, Cable, et al, since the beginning. I did take his advice about including Gravitron and Punisher (the latter instead of a Predator - the Sidekicks were my idea) in my army. If I had taken all of his advice, he'd have built this army.

Sage's Telepathic Tactician is a powerful strategic power, and the primary reason to draft her. On a pure power gamer basis, as dok says, there is no comparison. But Best Laid Plans and Master of Deception give the Player more interesting, fun things to do.

Best Laid Plans messes with an opponent's OMs or boosts the Player's Initiative a bit every Round. In addition, it can be used in must-have Initiative situations, of which I'm liable to have quite a few of in this game..

Master of Deception, in contrast to Telepathic Tactician, is a fascinating tactical power. It allows the Player to take a turn with another unit when the one an OM is on is killed before it can use it. It can be used to avoid wasting an OM on an attack that has succeeded, or add an OM to an attack that has failed. It enables the Player to foil an opponent's attempt to take advantage of the Player's OM placement, and to better enable the Player to respond to opportunities to do the same to an opponent. All the more reason then, given the OM issues my current draft army has, to go with Helmut.

Master Swordplay is just icing on the cake.

P.S.: I'm sure I speak for chas and the rest of the Gang when I invite Dysole, dok, Ronin, or anyone else, to come over next week and have at it with us!

I guess I'm with Ronin. Helmut is a bad ass, and I like him better.


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  #7  
Old August 20th, 2014, 12:19 PM
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Re: Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

I'd still love to see Master Tactician and Telepathic Tactician altered, both to make them a bit weaker and to make them somewhat distinct. I liked the idea of changing Master Tactician to requiring a revealed OM on Roger's card, as a nod to Captain America. Not sure how I'd like to see Telepathic Tactician changed, but it'd be cool to see it changed so that it's fairly distinct from MT.

I've always liked the look of Baron Helmut Zemo. He's really interesting, but I'm still not sure how to play him right - he's nothing like Heinrich, who you just keep at the back organising everything. This guy's boosts are less vital and his combat power much better - I have a feeling that he needs to be used more aggressively than I have been doing. I'm wondering how well pairing him with J'onn J'onzz in a large game would go - the Martian's the perfect guy to put your units in the right places for Master of Deception to really do some good.


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  #8  
Old August 20th, 2014, 12:30 PM
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Re: Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

Ah, you're right, Sage can't manipulate Init rolls with Probability Calculation.

Looking at that scenario, I have two words for you: Shadow Thief.

If I were looking to make a fun army, but still a very strong one that fit the format, I'd probably go with something like Martian Manhunter with Warren Worthington III (either one) and Vulture. Then I'd splash in Shadow Thief and some of the other units that can leave the board (Chronos, Moon Knight, Angstrom Levy, Blue Beetle). Maybe I'd toss in Mirror Master just to reinforce the "messing with figure placement" theme. Finally, add Sage to make it all manageable and to help out all those d20 powers.
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  #9  
Old August 20th, 2014, 02:53 PM
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Re: Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

Well met!

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Ah, you're right, Sage can't manipulate Init rolls with Probability Calculation.

Looking at that scenario, I have two words for you: Shadow Thief.

If I were looking to make a fun army, but still a very strong one that fit the format, I'd probably go with something like Martian Manhunter with Warren Worthington III (either one) and Vulture. Then I'd splash in Shadow Thief and some of the other units that can leave the board (Chronos, Moon Knight, Angstrom Levy, Blue Beetle). Maybe I'd toss in Mirror Master just to reinforce the "messing with figure placement" theme. Finally, add Sage to make it all manageable and to help out all those d20 powers.
chas designed this scenario in part because he considered his win to be cheesy in in TIG #1. chas approves, or doesn't, the armies of each of us, first come first served. To avoid breaking the scenario - chas' situation in TIG #2 is difficult enough - no stealing the Gauntlet, or mimicing its powers, is allowed. Gravitron was almost banned. Anything that would stall Thanos too much and/or unavoidably is banned. In general, known and recently discovered broken combos are banned. None of us want an unbalanced game in any direction.

Moon Knight was in all my drafts up to the last one, but 1. I used him in last month's gathering of the Gang, and 2. I realized he could not drop using Helmut's X. Angstrom Levy was also in an early draft.
We agreed that Angstrom Levy might break the game.
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  #10  
Old August 20th, 2014, 04:01 PM
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Re: Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

Ah, dok , Dysole, and I are used to figuring out incredibly strong combos and throwing them at each other.

I see now you want balance between each player. Which imo, is incredibly important for non-competitive play.

Have fun!
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  #11  
Old August 20th, 2014, 05:16 PM
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Re: Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

Well met!

I should have said I didn't want a broken scenario, where either chas or OMs or more of the rest of us have no chance from the start. Otherwise, we are far from non-competitive.
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Old August 20th, 2014, 07:33 PM
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Re: Baron Zemo (Helmut) or Sage

Yeah sounds good.

I mostly think of C3G as a battle of wits and army building. There is so many figures and abilities, it is fun to delve into strategies others haven't thought of yet.
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