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  #5101  
Old March 29th, 2023, 12:12 PM
Shadowking Shadowking is online now
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
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Originally Posted by Shadowking View Post
To be honest a lot of my games were just with her, Scarlet and Microcorp/other "fun" units and without Raelin (partly because I was using Delta points in most of them, so Raelin is a lot less efficient there), where she doesn't have anywhere near as much of a scary utilization or ceiling.
The tricky part of playtesting is to not play units they way you think they should be played, but how other people will play them. That is sometimes difficult to figure out; something you envision to be a neat cheerleader might be overly good as an assassin, for example. One thing that always needs serious playtesting is the optimal build in a standard tournament format.
Yeah for sure, I will have to keep that in mind for the future - I've done a *lot* of custom Magic: The Gathering stuff & playtesting (multiple sets all with draft formats, I and some of my sets are part of entirely-custom constructed formats, etc) but am still relatively new to Heroscape custom material. But yeah you guys are right, having a unit like Krey who just naturally slots into a good build and improves it in some area (not that she nesc. is this, but even if's a unit that doesn't nesc. actually change that build's ultimate power level or MU smoothing that much) is probably not very smart as a starting point. I'm guessing I should be testing more with "real" points than Delta points for anything I might consider submitting for SoV at some point? Overall I tend to like Delta more as a way for more things to see the table but I'm thinking that may be counterproductive for these purposes (I was testing Kafnirra with Delta MacDirks, for example, although there she actually gets worse with regular points since the MacDirks cost more so less concern about her being stronger in regular play).
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  #5102  
Old March 29th, 2023, 12:49 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Please no more commander figures.

I like the idea of Jan, but not the implementation. I'm not a fan of marker powers unless they really add something and I think this just adds clunkiness.

Kafnirra is interesting, but range 2 and range 3 are special range values reserved for very distinct thematic purposes. I'd go with range 4. You'd probably need to go down to 3 attack since she bonds with KoW also.

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  #5103  
Old March 29th, 2023, 01:13 PM
Shadowking Shadowking is online now
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by caps View Post
Please no more commander figures.

I like the idea of Jan, but not the implementation. I'm not a fan of marker powers unless they really add something and I think this just adds clunkiness.

Kafnirra is interesting, but range 2 and range 3 are special range values reserved for very distinct thematic purposes. I'd go with range 4. You'd probably need to go down to 3 attack since she bonds with KoW also.
Thanks for the notes!

Ah OK, have there just been too many commander figures added recently, or people aren't a fan of them, or something like that? Agents just felt a bit under-represented and actually made *more* sense to me thematically to get a commander figure than a lot of the actual ones; the trope of the "mission director" and all that as opposed to stuff like Monks or Ninjas who seem to have just gotten one to make them less bad.

I do agree than Jan has some clunky stuff going on, which is a shame. Perhaps there is an easier way to capture the "cavalry hero charging into battle" element; something akin to the Templar's Galloping Charge (or a variation on that) is the obvious/easy one, although I enjoy the idea of capturing the speed of the charge also protecting him against ranged - I figured that just "if he ends his turn after moving 5 or more spaces, he gets +2 defense until next round" without any tracking mechanism was just asking for trouble though. The markers do work in capturing the right "feel" to me but also add a lot of text, and a bit of fiddliness - unfortunate side-effect of trying to work within the confines of the presented ruleset. I didn't find it too bad to play with personally but if the bar for this sort of stuff is high it might not manage to meet it - I'd love suggestions but I can try to tinker with it and see if I can come up with other ways to get similar mechanics going without needing a marker in play.

Yeah I think you're right on Kafnirra overall; I do like 3 range more overall for balance reasons, I think, but I had also been independently considering that even for a sort of short-range/shortbowesque "up-close fire" Nordic unit it's a bit "suspension of disbelief"-y at 3. 4 range 3 attack works well too, and also means she has to choose between taking height for a 4-dice range shot or getting to Strike and Shoot for a 3 and a 2 which leads to some other interesting choices in terms of positioning (and yeah like you mentioned reduces the ranged damage output factor with Knights).
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  #5104  
Old March 29th, 2023, 02:35 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop



A potential solution for Jan, maybe; Siege/Evar Scarcarver wording? Removes the need for a seperate marker in play by using the "X" as the tag, like those two heroes do. I also considered doing something like Estivara's Cloud of Darkness power, which technically is a defensive power that persists after her turn, but I think that is clunkier than this way and also less thematic (presumably you could apply something like a static defense buff to a figure using the same tech as she uses, but it felt weird). Since he now gets the benefit for Hussite Charge for the whole round after he charges in I felt like a -1 defense drop was more suitable - I could also see it thematically applying only to small/medium figures if he needs more theme or a slight power hit, but it is nice to be able to defense drop Q9 or other big things backed by Raelin a bit.

EDIT: And an extra note on him: I don't think he should be Valiant personality, actually, to not have any chance to take on some of Alastair's role in 4th Mass builds at lower figure totals. There are many others that could work for him just as well (Bold, Inspiring, Resolute, Noble, even Militaristic potentially - there's an argument he could go to Einar even rather than Jandar, and I wouldn't mind that, but I felt like overall Jandar made more sense for him).

Last edited by Shadowking; March 29th, 2023 at 04:58 PM.
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  #5105  
Old March 29th, 2023, 05:45 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Shadowking View Post
Ah OK, have there just been too many commander figures added recently, or people aren't a fan of them, or something like that? Agents just felt a bit under-represented and actually made *more* sense to me thematically to get a commander figure than a lot of the actual ones; the trope of the "mission director" and all that as opposed to stuff like Monks or Ninjas who seem to have just gotten one to make them less bad.
The ninja, monk, and cowboy commanders were all controversial. Some people like them, some people don't. Some people like some of them and not others.

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Originally Posted by Shadowking View Post
I do agree than Jan has some clunky stuff going on, which is a shame. Perhaps there is an easier way to capture the "cavalry hero charging into battle" element; something akin to the Templar's Galloping Charge (or a variation on that) is the obvious/easy one, although I enjoy the idea of capturing the speed of the charge also protecting him against ranged - I figured that just "if he ends his turn after moving 5 or more spaces, he gets +2 defense until next round" without any tracking mechanism was just asking for trouble though. The markers do work in capturing the right "feel" to me but also add a lot of text, and a bit of fiddliness - unfortunate side-effect of trying to work within the confines of the presented ruleset. I didn't find it too bad to play with personally but if the bar for this sort of stuff is high it might not manage to meet it - I'd love suggestions but I can try to tinker with it and see if I can come up with other ways to get similar mechanics going without needing a marker in play.
Sir Dupuis has some cool charge mechanics as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowking View Post


A potential solution for Jan, maybe; Siege/Evar Scarcarver wording? Removes the need for a seperate marker in play by using the "X" as the tag, like those two heroes do. I also considered doing something like Estivara's Cloud of Darkness power, which technically is a defensive power that persists after her turn, but I think that is clunkier than this way and also less thematic (presumably you could apply something like a static defense buff to a figure using the same tech as she uses, but it felt weird). Since he now gets the benefit for Hussite Charge for the whole round after he charges in I felt like a -1 defense drop was more suitable - I could also see it thematically applying only to small/medium figures if he needs more theme or a slight power hit, but it is nice to be able to defense drop Q9 or other big things backed by Raelin a bit.

EDIT: And an extra note on him: I don't think he should be Valiant personality, actually, to not have any chance to take on some of Alastair's role in 4th Mass builds at lower figure totals. There are many others that could work for him just as well (Bold, Inspiring, Resolute, Noble, even Militaristic potentially - there's an argument he could go to Einar even rather than Jandar, and I wouldn't mind that, but I felt like overall Jandar made more sense for him).
Using the X marker is better, but it still feels like the complication isn't adding enough mechanically IMO.

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  #5106  
Old March 29th, 2023, 06:18 PM
Shadowking Shadowking is online now
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by caps View Post
Using the X marker is better, but it still feels like the complication isn't adding enough mechanically IMO.
Hmm, do you mean like it doesn't add enough stuff to how differently he plays when it's "active"? Or like, it's not good enough to bother trying to do "the thing" with him? I had a few versions with different SAs using the previous template (a "piercing charge" that was forced to hit an adjacent unit to the target as well, one that dealt him damage if he didn't wound anything to represent the potential danger of a failed charge and to make using it more of a decision) but in the end those mostly felt less satisfying to me. I like Dupuis's design as a sort of "run around the battlefield taking tactical engagements" cavalry hero, Jan here is trying to be more of a "get a big initial charge turn off and then have to decide whether to stay in a bogged down melee with your kinda middling base stats, but likely against the highest priority target (since that's probably why you charged them in the first place), or try to break off and charge something else but risk disengagements etc". Evar Scarcarver and Siege do both have relatively simple bonuses for their use of similar mechanics, but I'm not sure if they would pass muster on this for you here if not for just already being part of the game as a baseline.
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  #5107  
Old March 29th, 2023, 06:39 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by Shadowking View Post
Hmm, do you mean like it doesn't add enough stuff to how differently he plays when it's "active"? Or like, it's not good enough to bother trying to do "the thing" with him? I had a few versions with different SAs using the previous template (a "piercing charge" that was forced to hit an adjacent unit to the target as well, one that dealt him damage if he didn't wound anything to represent the potential danger of a failed charge and to make using it more of a decision) but in the end those mostly felt less satisfying to me. I like Dupuis's design as a sort of "run around the battlefield taking tactical engagements" cavalry hero, Jan here is trying to be more of a "get a big initial charge turn off and then have to decide whether to stay in a bogged down melee with your kinda middling base stats, but likely against the highest priority target (since that's probably why you charged them in the first place), or try to break off and charge something else but risk disengagements etc". Evar Scarcarver and Siege do both have relatively simple bonuses for their use of similar mechanics, but I'm not sure if they would pass muster on this for you here if not for just already being part of the game as a baseline.
What I mean is that adding complexity to a power has to have a certain level of payoff in terms of gameplay experience. A power that boils down to "sometimes you get +2 defense, sometimes you don't" should be simple. Also, simple powers are generally preferred over complex powers, so this isn't an argument for "make the power more interesting/useful to justify the complexity" it's an argument for "simplify the power."

So one way to do that would be:
When Jan Sobieski is engaged, add 2 to his defense vs attacks from non-adjacent figures.
and if you want to emphasize the cavalry advantage you could even add something like
... and adjacent small or medium figures.
and make the special attack just be:
Hussite Charge Special Attack
Range 1. Attack 4.
Jan Sobieski may not use Hussite Charge Special Attack against figures he was engaged with at the start of the turn. Defending figures roll 2 less defense dice against Hussite Charge Special Attack.
This is basically the same theme as what you had before, but there's no need for any marker.

I would probably also go with a normal attack of 4.

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  #5108  
Old March 29th, 2023, 07:06 PM
Shadowking Shadowking is online now
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by caps View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowking View Post
Hmm, do you mean like it doesn't add enough stuff to how differently he plays when it's "active"? Or like, it's not good enough to bother trying to do "the thing" with him? I had a few versions with different SAs using the previous template (a "piercing charge" that was forced to hit an adjacent unit to the target as well, one that dealt him damage if he didn't wound anything to represent the potential danger of a failed charge and to make using it more of a decision) but in the end those mostly felt less satisfying to me. I like Dupuis's design as a sort of "run around the battlefield taking tactical engagements" cavalry hero, Jan here is trying to be more of a "get a big initial charge turn off and then have to decide whether to stay in a bogged down melee with your kinda middling base stats, but likely against the highest priority target (since that's probably why you charged them in the first place), or try to break off and charge something else but risk disengagements etc". Evar Scarcarver and Siege do both have relatively simple bonuses for their use of similar mechanics, but I'm not sure if they would pass muster on this for you here if not for just already being part of the game as a baseline.
What I mean is that adding complexity to a power has to have a certain level of payoff in terms of gameplay experience. A power that boils down to "sometimes you get +2 defense, sometimes you don't" should be simple. Also, simple powers are generally preferred over complex powers, so this isn't an argument for "make the power more interesting/useful to justify the complexity" it's an argument for "simplify the power."

So one way to do that would be:
When Jan Sobieski is engaged, add 2 to his defense vs attacks from non-adjacent figures.
and if you want to emphasize the cavalry advantage you could even add something like
... and adjacent small or medium figures.
and make the special attack just be:
Hussite Charge Special Attack
Range 1. Attack 4.
Jan Sobieski may not use Hussite Charge Special Attack against figures he was engaged with at the start of the turn. Defending figures roll 2 less defense dice against Hussite Charge Special Attack.
This is basically the same theme as what you had before, but there's no need for any marker.

I would probably also go with a normal attack of 4.
Ahh right, OK yeah I see what you mean, thanks. I think I was just getting a bit too hung up on "he should also get the defensive bonus while he's charging into battle across the map but before he actually gets to the enemy", but with a move of 8 he likely doesn't need that additional benefit since he'll be doing it pretty fast and they should, on most maps, only get a turn or two to fire at him before he can connect with *something* (might not be the best target at first, since they'll likely hide it near the back if you have him, but still). Doing 6 wounds in one turn to him is also quite hard - especially if he rides up to height during the first move. I think most of the games I played he was able to get into combat within 2 turns if you wanted him to (although it wasn't always the best choice to do so, given it puts him out there alone into a mob of units).

I do however worry that "defense bonus while engaged only" doesn't really feel like it's part of a charging power, which the movement conditional did quite well I felt (and that was also part of it), but maybe that's just me and it'd be fine? It can also cause some somewhat odd gameplay against ranged commons where they'll disengage with the one he's fighting and then fire into him, but I suppose Wait then Fire can't do that super cleanly since it'll drop their bonus. I feel like even if it's not this exactly there'll be something that'll work though. I could honestly even just give him the Evasive 2 from the Elite Onyx Vipers, I feel like a fast cavalry figure could just have that effect passively potentially and if his special is instead the thing compelling him to move a lot (and he's otherwise stuck with his middling base stats) it'd work out cleaner; like this?



I do like how nice and clean this looks and it plays essentially exactly the same as the previous in like, 70% of cases or something (he's a bit stronger being parked on glyphs in ranged MUs, but it's a lot of points for a glyph holder if he isn't getting to run around fighting; also in the specific instance when he's facing a lot of ranged units, has reached melee and is not continuing to charge around - but there since he's up close the ranged units can typically just swarm him and get their normal base attack dice against his 3 defense). Be interested to hear your thoughts VS the older ones, and the abilities you proposed. I did also change him to Noble personality over Valiant for the aformentioned thing with 4th Mass, but maybe Bold would be better to fit his mechanics).

Last edited by Shadowking; March 29th, 2023 at 07:24 PM.
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  #5109  
Old March 29th, 2023, 08:57 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

That's much better! I'm not sure evasive 2 is the best way to represent the advantage of being mounted, but you've got the idea of what I was saying about complexity for sure.


Also note that your version of the special attack let's him circle a figure to get the charge.


I'd suggest take it back to your customs thread for more tweaks and then do some playtesting to make sure it feels the way you want it to on the battlefield.

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  #5110  
Old March 30th, 2023, 09:30 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

For a "charging but not yet engaged" defensive bonus, you could re-theme this from Darkprowl Thrall:

Quote:
Stealthy 4
When an unengaged Darkprowl Thrall is attacked with a normal or special attack, add 4 defense dice to the defending Thrall.


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  #5111  
Old March 30th, 2023, 10:49 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by caps View Post
Also note that your version of the special attack let's him circle a figure to get the charge.
Or move back in forth between two spaces repeatedly. The Templar Calvary can be a good reference for wording:

Quote:
A Templar Calvary Knight receives 2 additional attack dice when attacking any figure that was at least 4 clear sight spaces away from the Knight at the start of his turn.
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  #5112  
Old March 30th, 2023, 12:07 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Ah, right, I *was* aware you could circle figures to activate it (it didn't come up much in the testing games for activating the original power with markers, because it's actually quite hard to circle a double-spaced figure around a unit and not get blocked up by terrain or other figures) but did not think of the fact that you could just "hop" between the same couple of spaces to make it work. I don't love that it lets the opponent cheese it back by just moving their figure up to within 3 spaces, and even if he moves up more than that behind them he doesn't get the effect, but it's better that way than letting him basically always get it unless he's literally always able to get it unless fully surrounded. You could maybe get away with a wording like "moved through at least five different/unique spaces this turn" so he couldn't double back on himself? But I'm not sure if that runs into rules issues or not - if not I'd prefer it but the Templar one seems fine.



With that in mind (and I think I prefer the Darkprowl Thrall-type ability over Evasive? It seems to make more sense in terms of the theme) here's where I am at now. The main differences are Hussite Charge going up to 5 attack but only applying the defensive drop to small and medium figures, and now I think he plays a lot nicer in terms of the delta between his base and his charge attack while not being able to just annihilate a high-cost large hero in one turn with 5 attack and 2 defense drop.

I managed to play a couple more games with mostly this version of him this morning (with Evasive over the Thrall ability, and without Templar wording, but obv. I never did the "bounce around the same 2 spaces" exploit in the games), including a particularly fun one with Knights and Gilbert against MacDirks and Kafnirra, where he mostly stayed back until the late-game and then was able to get a charge off into the MacDirk backlines over 2 turns, got attacked down to just 2 remaining life from his full 6 by the MacDirk counterattack, and then took a risky disengage to get out and ride around the road to skewer Kafnirra's last two wounds with his Hussite Charge, as well as squeezing out a couple wounds onto the MacDirk army from a Wannock glyph before going down.

I think overall he's probably weaker than Alastair is as a baseline, but the extra defense against ranged is nice into some match-ups (I ran him against Mohicans, Teeth and a custom Tribesman hero I'm also working on this morning as well, where it was very handy), and he's much more specific in terms of his positioning and play - Alastair is more "point-and-click" to take down specific targets I think, whereas it seems as though you have to play Jan a lot better to get his max. value. He also feels stronger into certain medium heroes sometimes, and things vulnerable to specials (Alastair has the advantage of Overextend being able to clear out a screen and swing at the hero all in one turn which he lacks), and feels like he can be pretty good at punishing certain bad positioning from the opponent.

All in all I've gone back and forth on his points a bit but I think around the 115-130 range seems pretty appropriate, since Alastair is pretty solid already and when played well in the right situation I do think Jan can come out stronger - it also seems better to be conservative with the point number, rather than try to push as low as possible, so I could see 125 or 130 being more appropriate. Regardless though, he's been pretty fun to play with!
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