caps' maps - 2023-02-25 updates:Cage Match Redux and Seagate - Page 12

caps · #**133** February 25th, 2023, 11:57 PM

I have several updates to post! The first is a formal release/announcement that I've remixed Dignan's Cage Match in an attempt to address the concerns of the WoS judges.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caps

Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Would you mind if I remix Cage Match at some point?

This is my attempt to address the objections of the WoS judges (below) to Cage Match

Spoiler Alert!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Cage Match by Dignan

Overall design : This, ladies and gentlemen, is what I love in maps, an original gameplay design backed by a strong aestetic (fortress invaded by swamp and Marro, love it). Almost all the parts of the map have major qualities, but also major downsides, which leads to a good amount of different strategies.

Balance & Playability
In some games, the maps turns out well, and is played the way it was made to be played. These games were a complete blast to play, action all over the map, never ending battle for the glyphs, 180° strategy turns because some glyph is taken by your opponent, some risky plays who turn out very good because it surprised etc…
But in some other games none of that happened because the glyphs were irrevelant and there were no reason for each player to leave the level 3 platform.
The first problem is that this level 3 platform is too easy to hold because if your opponent place his figures correctly, the only ways to attack him are :
1- The swamp of death
2- Two poor little hexs road where the opponent has height advantage on you
That is the main problem of the map, it’s too easy to block the level 3 platform access from your opponent. So melee is screwed because even with both thorian and Astrid, the army which stay on the platform will have the edge. It even leads to melee vs melee games where no one wants to attack (yeah go grab this Astrid and enjoy your +1 attack while I have +1 attak and +1 defense due to height), something which happen very rarely in Heroscape usually.
Note that this problem happen only when one army has little to no range, if both armies have a decent amount of ranged figures, then taking the 4 level hills on the sides is interesting, and it leads to cool games.
But there is another big problem on this map : Thorian doesn’t apply to special attacks. So the screen + special attackers armies will have the advantage in pretty much any machup, and all they do is to stay on the platform.
Melee have close to no chance, 100% guaranteed height disavantage and Astrid quite impossible to grab.
Against range as long as some screen figures, usually very good at grabbing glyphs, touch Thorian, then it’s very hard for the range, because all the choices are bad. Either you let them the glyph and you fight like you were a melee army (see upward, but in worse) or you try to contest the glyphs, throw your figures in the swamp of death, against excellent glyphs grabbers, waste all your attacks on the screen figures, and even if you claim Thorian back the special attacker can just destroy all your stuff down there.
If special attackers where all in the bottom of the rankings that would be good, but that’s far to be the case as the meta is dominated by special attackers with the tons of defensive powers we had since D&D.

Conclusion :
Cage match has a very interesting design and can offer the best game of your life. But it leads too often to boring or not interesting games and don’t have a good balance.
A machup which is usually « hard but I will destroy this f***ing [insert OP figure name here], great challenge

» can become « I don’t want to play this » on Cage Match which is not good at all.
I vote NO to induct Cage Match in the WoS, but I’d love to see it reviewed, with an easier access to the platform for melee and a custom Thorian which also works on special attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dok

Cage Match by Dignan

When I first considered this map for judging, I was extremely skeptical. The Thorian glyph jumped out to me in particular. In the end, though, I was pleasantly surprised. I agree with most of what caps said in his nomination post. The map has a pretty interesting and often fun dynamic.

Thorian was clearly carefully chosen for this map. Without it, ranged squads would be extremely dominant due to the easily defended high ground each side gets. With it, there’s an interesting dynamic in games between range (or ranged normals, anyway) and melee, or range and range. Obviously Thorian is ignored in all-melee contests, but Astrid keeps the middle in play. When games on this map work well, they work very well - I’ve had a couple really good games on this one.

The biggest issue with the map is the two single-spaced dips in the road to level 2 - and, to a lesser extent, the two double-spaced dips on the other side. What these dips do is create a very clear “yours and mine” quality to the sections of level 3 road in the ring. Because of the many blockers and obstacles on the map, it can be extremely difficult to outflank an army that hunkers down on its high area. (The single-spaced swamp water dip on the sides next to the glyph exacerbates this issue by making outflanking still more difficult.) This problem is much worse for double-spaced figures, who can’t even use the road to engage an opponent on that key map position. Instead double spacers have to drop down to an extremely vulnerable level 0 spot, and will often be hit from height on 3 sides the next turn.

I had one particularly distressing game on this map where both me and my opponent played melee armies and we basically had a starting contest across the single-spaced gap until I made a run for it, attacking up around an initiative switch. Most games were not that bad, but overall I saw a pattern where, despite the desirable glyphs and the road ring that would seem to suggest ease of movement, the map would often clog up with one side attacking up at the choke point in the road.

And while I think Thorian makes a lot of sense on this map in many games, the difference between having a ranged special attack and not having one can be as critical on Cage Match as it is when playing against Deathreavers or Mezzodemons. Armies with a Major or Dragon or Kaemon can be at an enormous advantage on this map. That’s not really an indictment of the map, per se, as much as it’s an indictment of the Thorian glyph; it’s a very matchup-dependent glyph in addition to being very powerful, which is a tough combo to work with.

In the end, when I think about judging a map like this, I think about its place in a tournament map pool. My biggest concern is how much this map alters matchups. At a few tournaments I’ve been to, including a few Gencons, there has been one map in the pool that had kind of a notorious reputation among the players for throwing games one way or the other. Having some maps be more melee friendly or range friendly, or unique friendly versus common friendly, is perfectly fine, but in the end this map just seems a bit too extreme in the way it alters things.

It’s possible that I’d be willing to approve this map if it were either just the Thorian swing or just the dips in the road that I was worried about. But collectively, it’s too many red flags for me. It’s a map that I’ll certainly keep in my back pocket for playing games where I’m not worried about those particular issues, but it’s not a map I can give a wholehearted thumbs-up for general tournament use. No to induct.

TL;DR:

"this level 3 platform is too easy to hold... it’s too easy to block the level 3 platform access from your opponent"
"Thorian doesn’t apply to special attacks. So the screen + special attackers armies will have the advantage in pretty much any machup, and all they do is to stay on the platform."
"The biggest issue with the map is the two single-spaced dips in the road to level 2 - and, to a lesser extent, the two double-spaced dips on the other side."
"... the Thorian glyph [is] a very matchup-dependent glyph in addition to being very powerful"

--

To address these issues I raised the road so that is level 3 all the way around the entire map. I also removed Thorian and Astrid as hard-coded glyphs for the map, suggesting they be replaced with other strong glyphs instead. I also removed the swamp water dip along the outside edge of the map, making it easier to go around the sides.

As part of making the road level 3 all the way around, I also removed the level 4 road on the outer edges and replaced it with a single hex on level 4 in the middle of a 7-hex shape of road and sand.

To implement the various level-raising changes I did have to bring in a couple of extra 2-hex snow tiles. These are placeholders--I imagine most collections have some extras, since I know there were some waves that included extra tiles in booster packs. If no extra tiles are available, I believe that some leftover wall bases (of which this map leaves several) would also do the trick.

Finally, I removed a few battlements and added multiple ladders to make the map easier to traverse for melee armies.

We've already used it at several Colorado events and I've been pleased with how it has played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caps

uploaded originally by Dignan 2012-05-13
edit by caps uploaded 2023-02-25

Cage Match Redux

Requires: 1 SotM, 1 FotA

Glyph configuration: strong glyphs must be placed in the center (Ulaniva, Wannok, Valda, Thorian, or even C3V's Lorja Ivor or Yngvild), with useful glyphs on the outsides (Valda, Dagmar, Wannok, Lodin, or C3V's Holdir).

note: the glyphs of Brandar are treasure glyphs.

Link to .pdf
Link to .hsc

------------------------------------

The second update is that I just posted an updated version of Seagate based on feedback from recent events that have used the map.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caps

------------------------------------

uploaded 11/5/2022
updated 02/25/2023

Seagate

Glyphs of Brandar are optional Treasure Glyphs

Uses 1xRotV and 1xFotA

.pdf
.hsc
------------------------------------

This should make the water/Wannok side of the map more engaging. I've also widened the startzones and brought them closer in, making the map a little more "instant action." The other major change is that I figured out a way to make the rock plateau on the "south" side of the map go up one level, which I think makes the map a little more interesting--we'll see what feedback I get on that change.

caps · #**134** February 26th, 2023, 12:00 AM

Also, a sneak preview of a map I'm working on to showcase the new wall terrain sets that @GeneralRolando is cooking up:

Spoiler Alert!

Sir Heroscape · #**135** February 26th, 2023, 01:20 AM

I've always loved Cage Match...glad to see it get an update! I'll have to try it out.

Also, didn't realize this about Seagate, but I LOVE the "random"/useless water on the wannok side. Because it's SO thematic, cause it's CLEARLY the literal representation of the Sea, thus the name Seagate

caps · #**136** February 26th, 2023, 08:56 AM

Yeah, I felt like this was an appropriate time to have some useless water on the edge of the map. I also don't think it's totally useless; people will try to move their opponent's figures into it when they have the ability to do so (tactical switch, shield push, etc). I'm leaning towards removing all of the battlements on that side to support the kind of play from any direction.

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