Delta: latest updates and discussion

[Knox]

Keep up the good work! This is exciting stuff

[caps]

Some thoughts after some time army building and playing with the new point values:

- M-43 Resistance Fighters still too expensive. After they came out I remember reading debate about whether they were B- or C+. Not sure how their price has stayed the same in Delta; they have synergy with some good figures, but not strong enough synergy to be worth 65 points IMO.
- Raelin v1 is still too cheap. She could probably be 160 and still be worth taking in some armies. Raelin v2 might also be too cheap, but that's harder for me to evaluate.
- Einar Imperium probably still too expensive. Someone brought 3xEI + Krug + Atlaga to our Colorado event and went 1-3. That's not an optimal army for the EI, but they went down like paper against my Varks and against my 9yo's badly-played Romans, among other armies.
- Deepwyrm Drow seem very overpriced; they are not as good as WoA, who are much cheaper than them. 50 points seems right to me. 65 is way too high, though.

[Vydar_XLIII]

I finished the task of adding Delta cost stickers to all my army card sleeves. As I was doing this, a few things stuck out to me.


DW9K has the same cost in both classic and VC deltas. This seems odd, given the synergy web he has in VC.

The Rogues faction got hit by Darrak's increase. Maybe lower some other heroes or make the Brigand cost 30.

I feel like Cal the Smuggler straight up outclasses Garrett Burns. Garrett could be lowered more, or vice versa.

[caps]

I've talked with @dok about this some already and know that he disagrees with me, but I'm going to post anyway... I think the Elf Wizards are still too expensive. I know that they are good at this price point in high-point formats with figure limits... but my understanding of the point of Delta/Delta+ is to balance armies in a double-blind Bring the Cheese format. Balancing the Elf Wizards for that format is not changing the meta, either, since they're a coherent army and not just a mish-mash of unique heroes. Balancing outliers in arbitrary non double-blind bring-the-cheese formats is the job of tournament organizers, not Delta.

[caps]

Here's another one I'm a little unsure of: Othkurik at 140 points. That's his original point value, and I've always thought he seemed a little overpriced. I can't remember the last time I saw him in a tournament army in any format. It seems like the ballpark of 125 is where people would consider putting him in an army.

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Here's another one I'm a little unsure of: Othkurik at 140 points. That's his original point value, and I've always thought he seemed a little overpriced. I can't remember the last time I saw him in a tournament army in any format. It seems like the ballpark of 125 is where people would consider putting him in an army.

Both vegie's dad and I played Othkurik in the ScapeCon main event with 2x Greenscales and a 3-3 finish (I had Tandros and Theracus too, he added 2x PKs and Kyntela). I think the current value is fine, especially with the recent GSW drop. Right now Othkurik, Moltenclaw, and Charos are at a delta of 0, with Mimring, Nilf, and Braxas higher (+15, +15, +5 respectively). I think MC is a little better value there, but you're probably choosing between him and Othkurik based on map pool and point total rather than delta pricing.

[GeneralRolando]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

- Einar Imperium probably still too expensive. Someone brought 3xEI + Krug + Atlaga to our Colorado event and went 1-3. That's not an optimal army for the EI, but they went down like paper against my Varks and against my 9yo's badly-played Romans, among other armies.

Rip me I definitely opted for a worse army just cuz I wanted to play krug. Shoulda brought the Empress. Haha. I just love the EI. Thought about marcus as well so I could have a bunch of 7 move double attackers but then my entire army would have basically been the 9 EI figures which would have been toppled just as quickly. Lol. Expect me to bring them to the event immediately following a point drop for EI. (My other loss was against Chris's knights, I fared pretty well being fast and flying but still lost leaving 5 knights behind if I remember correctly)

[The_X_Marker]

Fun fact: Delta pricing started because I needed to justify playing a certain list at 500.

For what I set out to do, this list should always end up at or under 500 points:
Venoc Warlord
3x Fyorlag Spiders
2x Wyvern
Estivara

With current prices as of October 2022, it is 490. With the initial price changes that I established, it was 495. If you brought this to any tournament at non Delta prices, it would do poorly. Which makes sense, the Spiders are weak and it's 13 models. But it has so many avenues for synergy, the bonding, the movement (to me, movement is the most important stat in the game), the attack bonus from Estivara. There are so many great choiced to be made with the list over the course of a round. So it has everything that a good list has, save the models. Lists that buff one stat are good. Lists that buff 2 stats are great. Lists that can do that and bond should be the lists that frequent the finals tables.

[Typhon2222]

Originally Posted by The_X_Marker

Fun fact: Delta pricing started because I needed to justify playing a certain list at 500.

For what I set out to do, this list should always end up at or under 500 points:
Venoc Warlord
3x Fyorlag Spiders
2x Wyvern
Estivara

With current prices as of October 2022, it is 490. With the initial price changes that I established, it was 495. If you brought this to any tournament at non Delta prices, it would do poorly. Which makes sense, the Spiders are weak and it's 13 models. But it has so many avenues for synergy, the bonding, the movement (to me, movement is the most important stat in the game), the attack bonus from Estivara. There are so many great choiced to be made with the list over the course of a round. So it has everything that a good list has, save the models. Lists that buff one stat are good. Lists that buff 2 stats are great. Lists that can do that and bond should be the lists that frequent the finals tables.

Oh wow, a great background story to Delta — and great to know that its current pricing almost perfectly matches your original vision.

You must be glad that your baby has been so successful.

[Knox]

Originally Posted by S1R_ART0R1US

Both vegie's dad and I played Othkurik in the ScapeCon main event with 2x Greenscales and a 3-3 finish (I had Tandros and Theracus too, he added 2x PKs and Kyntela). I think the current value is fine, especially with the recent GSW drop. Right now Othkurik, Moltenclaw, and Charos are at a delta of 0, with Mimring, Nilf, and Braxas higher (+15, +15, +5 respectively). I think MC is a little better value there, but you're probably choosing between him and Othkurik based on map pool and point total rather than delta pricing.

Agree, Othkurik is made more valuable by the price increase to other dragons

[caps]

I couldn't help but notice that the figures showing up in the Finals of the OHS event are still primarily typical high-tier units:

Originally Posted by Dysole

The Finals are on Platypus.

The kevindola (5-1) v. kinseth (5-1) armies are:

10th Rechet
* Iskra Esenwein, Rechets of Bogdan, 10th Regiment of Footx5
Return of the King
* Isamu, Nilfheim, Raelin the Kyrie Warrior [RotV], Greenscale Warriorsx3

kinseth chooses to place the first army bid or defer. kevindola chooses who places first.

~Dysole, pushing us off

The only exception is Iskra and the Rechets, but with 5 squads of 10th Regiment, you can afford to have some "junk," and Iskra+Rechets aren't terrible.

I'll be very curious to see what changes with November's updates!

[Knox]

Originally Posted by caps

I couldn't help but notice that the figures showing up in the Finals of the OHS event are still primarily typical high-tier units:

The only exception is Iskra and the Rechets, but with 5 squads of 10th Regiment, you can afford to have some "junk," and Iskra+Rechets aren't terrible.

I'll be very curious to see what changes with November's updates!

This is definitely something to monitor, but that may be due to high level players having more experience with traditionally strong units than it does with the new prices still being imbalanced. If all units are now equally priced, we would still expect traditionally powerful armies to be the strongest in the meta just because of the sheer number of games that have been played with them that has led to a better understanding of their optimal strategy.