What Exactly is "Balanced"

[robbdaman]

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Yup, still depends on a few issues. Trying to decide whether to use Legacy pricings or to Ban D&D Units if I host an event.

Sure, banning D&D units makes great sense being they are the most widely available ones for new players to use.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Yup, still depends on a few issues. Trying to decide whether to use Legacy pricings or to Ban D&D Units if I host an event.

Excellent!

I hope you adopt as Priority #1 this goal: Get People To Come.

That should be #1. It's up to you, but I'd pick a format with that in mind.

Good luck, DA.

[wriggz]

My I recommend the Format in my sig, it is fun and promotes diversity. (It also has a good chance of adding a figure to Ollie's list)

[CornPuff]

Originally Posted by Revdyer

If Legacy is being offered as a hobby tweak, then I have neither objection nor much use for it.

You are right on the money Rev. It is a hobby tweak that some people find interesting, but probably more people don't really find use for. If somebody finds it interesting or fun, that's awesome. That's why I made it.

I think I presented it a bit clumsily at first. This thread has given me a lot of perspective on where Legacy sits in the Heroscape community. Some hate it, some love it, some misunderstand it and the vast majority of 'scape players have probably never heard of it.

Well, there is one thing people agree on: I picked a dumb name.
--

This thread has already established that Heroscape is fun. I'm assuming we think Heroscape is fun partly because of the terrain, cool units, dice rolling, good time with friends, and simple rules, quick play time, great strategy, the list goes on.

This thread still needs to answer how the current unit balance makes it fun. Why did the designers make the choices they made. I think this type of inspection honors the game, but some people probably think it has all the fun of explaining a joke until it isn't funny anymore.

Interesting questions:
1) What are the implications for Raelin's low cost on the metagame?
2) Are the right high powered units critical for a fun metagame?
3) Are there 'low skill required' units in heroscape? DED? Atlaga? 'Godball'?
4) should these units be low power units to keep the metagame fun?
5) Are there really powerful situational units? EI? Obsidian Guards? Repulsors?
6) should these units be low power to keep the metagame fun?
7)What are the superior substitute units? KoW > MacDirks? Stingers > TSA?
8.) Is there a common thread in superior substitutes? Maybe higher potential in the lesser picked squad?
9) Ollie mentioned (I'm going to butcher this) that tournament winning figures appearances followed the power law. Why is this the right distribution?

[Revdyer]

Originally Posted by CornPuff

You are right on the money Rev. It is a hobby tweak that some people find interesting, but probably more people don't really find use for. If somebody finds it interesting or fun, that's awesome. That's why I made it.

Thanks, CornPuff. I'm coming to see Legacy (and I don't think it's a bad choice for a name) as an annotation to the standard HeroScape game; a way of expanding the text, rather than restricting it. That I can value on occasion.

[Kaemon Awa 123]

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

Can anyone care to explain why changing scenarios is preferable or less intrusive compared to changing point costs?

To me, going to an event where melee units get a +1 modifier, or where more than 2x squads is not allowed, or where only Heroes are allowed fundamentally changes the game much more than altering some point costs.

...and that's the problem.

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

I can see how looking at new costs would take longer than reading 1 or 2 sentences about the new scenario

But

I would think that changing scenarios takes longer to internalize and think about new army builds than simply scanning which units have had modifications and using that to see which unit you think is the best value for the cost.

Gasp! THINKING?!?!?! Why, we quite simply can't have that, easiest (and possibly not best) way it is.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

From another (duh!) thread, I post these words as what I want to read after every event.

I don't give two [insert one of the following: nickels, cheese doodles, potatoes, bits] about the format, as long as people come, and afterwards people write words like these:

Again... just discourage "That Guy" from brining tier 1 all the time and you'll get more posts like the above ^. Or, you could just not care about him.

Originally Posted by Typhon2222

Something like "download this simple list of prices and construct any army you want from it within X points".

Easy peasy.

Not saying it's better or worse. Not saying it's necessary or not. Definitely not saying the current tournament scene is "broken". Just saying that I think explaining Legacy and using it for a tourney is pretty easy.

And explaining a simple little draft or alternate win condition isn't?

Originally Posted by Aldin

If this is true Dad (can I call you Dad? ), then I'd have to point out that it is being marketed VERY poorly. In fact, it should be marketed as a SCENARIO, no different from Reverse the Whip, Heat of Battle or Walk Like a Man.

Scenario changes what the win conditions are, a SLIGHT change to the rules (ie Walk Like a Man), Legacy changes what's on the cards.

Originally Posted by ollie

I'm always up for some metaphor stretching, so...

Have you examined the patient recently? Browsing quickly through the most recent pages of the Events subforum I count at least 35 different tournaments that have happened this year. Kill 'em alls, teams, drafts and plenty of one-on-one double-blinds. We recently established in the Champion for a Day thread that at least two-thirds of all units have won an event.

When running your differential diagnosis you need to remember that patients always lie. Don't believe the symptoms he is telling you he has on some of these threads. Do some tests, run some scans. Stat!

I think you'll find that your only problem is that you can't catch the patient because he's cartwheeling away from you down the street.

The metagame is just faking it for some Vicadin... just look at the data, as Ollie wisely says.

Originally Posted by CornPuff

Well, there is one thing people agree on: I picked a dumb name.

...Agreed. The true "Legacy" of Heroscape is RotV, where everyone picked armies based on how cool the figures were, etc. Basically, before everyone was overly concerened about winning... it's not all about winning. (And that's a lot, coming from me)

Originally Posted by CornPuff

This thread has already established that Heroscape is fun. I'm assuming we think Heroscape is fun partly because of the terrain, cool units, dice rolling, good time with friends, and simple rules, quick play time, great strategy, the list goes on.

Very, very true

Originally Posted by CornPuff

Interesting questions:
1) What are the implications for Raelin's low cost on the metagame?

Makes low defence units better, hits fast units a little bit, makes room for either hard to kill common hordes, lets you put Rats in with your Q9, the list goes on and on and on...

Originally Posted by CornPuff

2) Are the right high powered units critical for a fun metagame?

Of course! They just need to be held in check somehow, ie drafting for Q9, price/mobility for TKN.

Originally Posted by CornPuff

3) Are there 'low skill required' units in heroscape? DED? Atlaga? 'Godball'?

Yep, stingers come to mind. Although, I would disagree on all of those except for Godball, if you want to win with them.

Originally Posted by CornPuff

4) should these units be low power units to keep the metagame fun?

Nope, the Newb should have fun too. However, an experienced player should be able to beat them.

Originally Posted by CornPuff

5) Are there really powerful situational units? EI? Obsidian Guards? Repulsors?

Yep. Good in the right situation, weak in others.

Originally Posted by CornPuff

6) should these units be low power to keep the metagame fun?

No, a draft should let them counter and be countered, keeping them in check without requiring "low power"

Originally Posted by CornPuff

7)What are the superior substitute units? KoW > MacDirks? Stingers > TSA?

Lots an' Lots an' Lots. However, the "inferior" units will have a niche that they'll be able to fill in a draft.

Originally Posted by CornPuff

8.) Is there a common thread in superior substitutes? Maybe higher potential in the lesser picked squad?

Yes, higher potential, lower average value due to the flawed double blind format.

Originally Posted by CornPuff

9) Ollie mentioned (I'm going to butcher this) that tournament winning figures appearances followed the power law. Why is this the right distribution?

Because the situational units will be better when used right, yet the non-situational units, or low-situationality (sp?) ones are the safer pick. Again, (sounding like a broken record here...) draft formats of any kind will allow experienced players to win with situational units, but doesn't deny the newbie the ability to make a good Stingers/Ratpodge army. They'll just know that this will allow them to be countered. This stresses player skill over army quality, which is always a good thing.


.......Wow that was a long post! (I am getting awfully good at dissecting those long questioning posts though )

[Typhon2222]

Originally Posted by Kaemon Awa 123

And explaining a simple little draft or alternate win condition isn't?

I didn't say that, KA. And I think you'd have a very difficult time arguing that I was even implying that. But if you'd like to try, please go ahead.

[Tornado]

Interesting discussion with lots of strong opinions. It almost sounds like some people are in fear of Legacy taking over and becoming the standard way to play Heroscape. Really, why does anyone care? It all comes down to "Does Legacy make Heroscape as fun or more fun than the original cards?". If your answer is yes then play Legacy. If "No" then do not. That seems simple to me. If there is a Legacy tournament and you hate Legacy, well no one is holding a gun to your head, stay home. I think in these situations the attendance to said events will speak for themselves.
As far as banning D&D units ?!? As stated before, great way to exclude new players and some of the best units ever made.
Though nearly impossible in a tournament event I am a big supporter of random armies. You find out how good you really are when you fight an unknown army with an unknown army. The balance comes in the list itself and a little bit of the luck of the roll.
This is a great thread in the fact that it shows how deeply many have been affected by a bunch of plastic. I do not see a real resolution for this discussion. Perhaps we should switch to an easier topic, like the meaning of life. Peace and love and best of luck to everyone in their quest for "balance".

[Devil's Advocate]

Originally Posted by Kaemon Awa 123

just look at the data, as Ollie wisely says.

The Data is a large reason why many people like Legacy. They want to see more units having legitimate chances to win Tournaments. For example compare how many tournaments 10th have won vs how many tournaments G Nators have won, or how many tournaments KOW have won vs how many tournaments WOB have won, or how many tournaments Raeliln ROTV has won vs Raelin SOTM (even if you ony count from the time the WOB and SOTM were released)

Originally Posted by Tornado

these situations the attendance to said events will speak for themselves.
As far as banning D&D units ?!? As stated before, great way to exclude new players and some of the best units ever made.

My thinking is that it would be an only Classic Heroscape Tournament. Banning Marvel excludes some players and some of the Best Units but people still do it regularly.

[Tornado]

D&D is classic scape, Marvel is not, just ask GB, big difference there. As stated before newbies have the easiest access to D&D over what you call classic scape... peace

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Devil's Advocate

My thinking is that it would be an only Classic Heroscape Tournament. Banning Marvel excludes some players and some of the Best Units but people still do it regularly.

Whatever it is, I hope a hundred people come. If there's something you want to do, go for it, though as I said above I hope your #1 priority is getting people to come.

If it's your event don't let other people tell you how to run it, even if they needle you for forbidding the most commonly available units out there. Better to have something than nothing.

[Tornado]

Originally Posted by D_S
Whatever it is, I hope a hundred people come. If there's something you want to do, go for it, though as I said above I hope your #1 priority is getting people to come.

If it's your event don't let other people tell you how to run it, even if they needle you for forbidding the most commonly available units out there. Better to have something than nothing.

I could not have said it better, ever. I truly do hope you have the best turnout and most fun and thrilling tournament. You are performing a great service. No one can play in any kind of tourney if people like you do not take the time to put forth the effort to make it happen. A round of thanks and applause to all organizers, directors, supporters, volunteers, and players coming ready to play... thank you ~'scape on