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  #37  
Old June 16th, 2009, 10:47 AM
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Re: What's for dinner?

Another way to get inexpensive meat is to RAISE CATTLE. It's really not that hard, and you just have to deal with the fact that you're eating Bessieburgers, which isn't hard to do.

Another thing is that you can go to local dairies and cattle farms and buy into %ages of a cow for raw milk and/or meat. When the cow goes to slaughter, they cut the meat how you specify and you get a bunch of meat on the cheap. That may be what you should do, Ollie. I have a bud in Colorado who buys 800 pounds of meat at a time once a year or so, stores it in double-vacuum bags and wraps it in butcher paper - he has yet to lose a single cutlet to frostbite.

The real good reason for this is that you can inspect the cow beforehand, you can have control of the 'cruelty' level of the rancher, and you can see what it eats. Cow milk from cows treated with estrogen is the reason we have 12 year olds growing boobies when 20 years ago maybe 1 out of 100 did.

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  #38  
Old June 16th, 2009, 10:47 AM
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Re: What's for dinner?

I think distance is the biggest problem vegetarians face when putting forward their arguments. All the bad things that normally would turn off a person from a certain food happen in a building far far away. Humans who choose not to see themselves as being part of the animal kingdom are obviously going to have a hard time putting themselves in someone else's hooves. The effects of large scale factory farms, which is where most of the food in this country comes from, contributes a huge amount to global warming. But it takes time--distance--before we see it.

The reason I stopped being vegan is because I wasn't able to afford to eat well. Veganism is tough. Vegetarianism isn't. I can go into any restaurant in the country and find something to eat. It doesn't have to be organic. Casual vegetarianism is easy because you don't have to read labels. Cheese pizza from Papa John's will work. It's the easiest thing that you can do to contribute something huge to the world, your health, and if you're overweight, it helps with that too.

Thanks for giving me an outlet to voice this stuff. I don't think meat eaters are jerks. In fact, you guys will be one of the last generations of meat-centered diet eaters. In a hundred years, almost everyone will be vegetarian, by necessity but not by choice.

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  #39  
Old June 16th, 2009, 11:02 AM
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Re: What's for dinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp View Post
I think distance is the biggest problem vegetarians face when putting forward their arguments. All the bad things that normally would turn off a person from a certain food happen in a building far far away. Humans who choose not to see themselves as being part of the animal kingdom are obviously going to have a hard time putting themselves in someone else's hooves. The effects of large scale factory farms, which is where most of the food in this country comes from, contributes a huge amount to global warming. But it takes time--distance--before we see it.

The reason I stopped being vegan is because I wasn't able to afford to eat well. Veganism is tough. Vegetarianism isn't. I can go into any restaurant in the country and find something to eat. It doesn't have to be organic. Casual vegetarianism is easy because you don't have to read labels. Cheese pizza from Papa John's will work. It's the easiest thing that you can do to contribute something huge to the world, your health, and if you're overweight, it helps with that too.

Thanks for giving me an outlet to voice this stuff. I don't think meat eaters are jerks. In fact, you guys will be one of the last generations of meat-centered diet eaters. In a hundred years, almost everyone will be vegetarian, by necessity but not by choice.
You use humans being part of the animal kingdom as your argument though fail to realize that lions, tigers, bears (oh my!), snakes, raptors (birds of prey), pigs, raccoons, road runners, monkeys, voles, fish, whales and other such members of the animal kingdom brutally and savagely attack and murder helpless vegetarians every day.

Mountain lions have even been known to kill up to one hundred or so sheep in a night while only eating their hearts simply because they were tired of killing for food. In California, mountain lions are a specially protected specie and are no where close to being an endangered specie and in many areas are so overcrowded that they are forced to venture into housing areas. A mountain lion's home range is around 100 - 150 square miles. In the Eastern Sierra in california that home range is down to ten miles per cat due to severe over crowding.

I really fail to see why humans should put themselves in someone elses hooves. I much prefer retractable claws...
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  #40  
Old June 16th, 2009, 11:09 AM
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Re: What's for dinner?

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Those are all taxes on things that are bad for society (pollution, road wear, physical waste) as oppose to something that is good for society (working).
Socialist! Run, everybody!

We've talked about this in other threads, I think; it won't surprise you to hear I completely agree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperflyTNT
Another way to get inexpensive meat is to RAISE CATTLE. It's really not that hard, and you just have to deal with the fact that you're eating Bessieburgers, which isn't hard to do.

Another thing is that you can go to local dairies and cattle farms and buy into %ages of a cow for raw milk and/or meat.
We've talked about it. Raising our own ducks last year and this was our first big step and overall has been a success so far. We often talk about the next steps, usually starting with geese, heading upwards through goats and getting more and more fanciful. If we were to make a seriously big jump, I suspect we'd go for pigs.

I suspect that's how the grass-fed beef works. It's definitely something I'd love to do and is the primary reason for the chest freezer. There is a cattle farm near me that sells some of its own produce and it's great to be able to go and see their cows in the field. However, they find that they do best by only selling the expensive cuts (essentially steaks) directly, and some mince, and most of the carcass is sold through other means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp
I think distance is the biggest problem vegetarians face when putting forward their arguments. All the bad things that normally would turn off a person from a certain food happen in a building far far away. Humans who choose not to see themselves as being part of the animal kingdom are obviously going to have a hard time putting themselves in someone else's hooves. The effects of large scale factory farms, which is where most of the food in this country comes from, contributes a huge amount to global warming. But it takes time--distance--before we see it.
One suggestion I love is to have little TVs above the chill cabinets in supermarkets showing the conditions in which the animals were raised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp
Thanks for giving me an outlet to voice this stuff. I don't think meat eaters are jerks. In fact, you guys will be one of the last generations of meat-centered diet eaters. In a hundred years, almost everyone will be vegetarian, by necessity but not by choice.
Thanks for voicing it. It's difficult stuff, but interesting and important, I think.
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  #41  
Old June 16th, 2009, 11:32 AM
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Re: What's for dinner?

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Originally Posted by J4Jandar View Post
You use humans being part of the animal kingdom as your argument though fail to realize that lions, tigers, bears (oh my!), snakes, raptors (birds of prey), pigs, raccoons, road runners, monkeys, voles, fish, whales and other such members of the animal kingdom brutally and savagely attack and murder helpless vegetarians every day.
This argument could, possibly, be used to back the hunting and eating of wild meat. Until mountain lions start raising livestock, you're going to have to come up with something better to justify your Big Mac.
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  #42  
Old June 16th, 2009, 11:37 AM
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Re: What's for dinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by J4Jandar View Post
You use humans being part of the animal kingdom as your argument though fail to realize that lions, tigers, bears (oh my!), snakes, raptors (birds of prey), pigs, raccoons, road runners, monkeys, voles, fish, whales and other such members of the animal kingdom brutally and savagely attack and murder helpless vegetarians every day.
This argument could, possibly, be used to back the hunting and eating of wild meat. Until mountain lions start raising livestock, you're going to have to come up with something better to justify your Big Mac.
The food source maintains itself and the sheer terror the "fast food" experiences should be enough to tug on the animal lovers heart strings but curiously doesn't...

I do not eat much fast food and I HATE McDonalds though am happy with vons employees taking a sledge and keeping my stakes from mooing.
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  #43  
Old June 16th, 2009, 11:48 AM
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Re: What's for dinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4Jandar View Post
The food source maintains itself and the sheer terror the "fast food" experiences should be enough to tug on the animal lovers heart strings but curiously doesn't...
You stub your toe. Painful, right? Someone comes and stamps on your toe. Again, painful. Are these morally equivalent situations? Do you react in the same way in each scenario?

I think you're missing some rather large issues of intent and moral obligation in your argument.
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  #44  
Old June 16th, 2009, 11:49 AM
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Re: What's for dinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gulp View Post
I think distance is the biggest problem vegetarians face when putting forward their arguments. All the bad things that normally would turn off a person from a certain food happen in a building far far away. Humans who choose not to see themselves as being part of the animal kingdom are obviously going to have a hard time putting themselves in someone else's hooves. The effects of large scale factory farms, which is where most of the food in this country comes from, contributes a huge amount to global warming. But it takes time--distance--before we see it.
I am not so sure about this. One could note that the societies with the lowest level of vegetarianism (developing nations, Brazil, Japan) are the ones most exposed to their food and the ways in which their food is slaughtered. In contrast, there seems to be a huge level of separation between the animals eaten and the food on the plate in societies (Australia, US, Western Europe)* that have that the highest percentage of vegetarianism.

I would propose that the shock and worry many Westerners feel is sourced in this separation. Taken out of the "natural" world, animals have become pets and friends, not a means of subsidence. The anthropomorphization of animals found across our culture is representative of this, IMO.

Ollie stated a bit earlier on that there are many "ethical issues surrounding food" -- things have not always been that way. The changing attitudes Westerners have towards the food we eat is discussed in a (long!) peise I very much piece reading:

Is food the new Sex?
March 2009. Mary Eberstandt. Hoover Institute Policy Review.

*I excluded India from this list, but it does have one of the largest rates of peise in the world. As much of this is due to religious inclinations of its citizenry, I felt it citizenry to separate it from the list of secular vegetarian states.

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Last edited by Chimpy; June 16th, 2009 at 11:50 AM. Reason: spelling error
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  #45  
Old June 16th, 2009, 12:03 PM
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Re: What's for dinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by clancampbell View Post
Food is great!

Oh, and everything is better with bacon!
I couldn't agree more.
In fact tonight I am going to be trying a new grilling item picked up from the UK (I haven't been there, my in-laws were missionaries there for 3 years).

Cut a banana into 1 inch chunks, wrap each chunk with a strip of bacon, put on skewer, grill, enjoy (well, the enjoy part has yet to be decided, but as clancampbell said, "...everything is better with bacon!").
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  #46  
Old June 16th, 2009, 12:07 PM
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Re: What's for dinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by J4Jandar View Post
The food source maintains itself and the sheer terror the "fast food" experiences should be enough to tug on the animal lovers heart strings but curiously doesn't...
You stub your toe. Painful, right? Someone comes and stamps on your toe. Again, painful. Are these morally equivalent situations? Do you react in the same way in each scenario?

I think you're missing some rather large issues of intent and moral obligation in your argument.
Moral obligations in your eyes. If one looks hard enough they can find evil in anything. You can fret over a saline injected chicken and I can enjoy my marinated fosters farm chicken burger. I find taking an animal's feelings into consideration silly. I'm sure if you asked the animal how it would like to be treated before it dies it would respond with "I would prefer no to die.". Do you go hungry and Not "hurt" it's feelings?
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  #47  
Old June 16th, 2009, 12:11 PM
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Re: What's for dinner?

Exciting news for me: I just found out that a butcher shop is opening today in my town. I was planning to go in anyway, so I'll check it out.

It sounds like it's hit the niche I want perfectly---it's possible to get good local meat in one of the shops in town, but only really the expensive popular cuts, and those are over-prepared (in my opinion). These guys sound like they'll sell me trotters, ears, or whatever, and make it much easier to get joints with the bone in and the fat not trimmed.
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  #48  
Old June 16th, 2009, 12:20 PM
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Re: What's for dinner?

Quote:
Originally Posted by J4Jandar View Post
Moral obligations in your eyes. If one looks hard enough they can find evil in anything. You can fret over a saline injected chicken and I can enjoy my marinated fosters farm chicken burger. I find taking an animal's feelings into consideration silly. I'm sure if you asked the animal how it would like to be treated before it dies it would respond with "I would prefer no to die.". Do you go hungry and Not "hurt" it's feelings?
If an animal was capable of understanding and communicating the concept of "I prefer not to die", then I would make a strong effort to seek something else to eat, and would only resort to eating that animal as a third-to-last resort, before cannibalism and starvation. Cows and pigs don't understand concepts like that, though. I'd have issues with eating Elephant or Dolphin or Gorilla meat, as they approach understanding of what death means.

Nobody denies that an animal like a cow can experience pain and suffering. If a cow is raised in a relatively natural state, and given a quick and fairly painless death, though, I don't see its life as a net negative. I can accept the death of an animal to feed me, given that that animal would not have been born had people not intended to eat it. If they started putting "pasture raised from birth to death" on meat packaging, I would exclusively stick to products with that label.
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