The Book of Zogross Hardscale

[Grison]

It seems that Zogross' card is no more inconsistent with the BTFU "targeting" language that the others Shedim cites. I'm fine with that.

But I also agree with killercactus' perspective, in that I don't see why an opponent would get to choose a new figure after Opportunity Strike activates. The power states, "no dice are rolled for this attack." To me, that's a plain text indication that "this attack" is indeed an attack -- just one with no dice. Since the opponent's figure has attacked, it can't normally do so again without some other ability that allows it.

If the intention of the designers is explicitly to allow multiple/repeating "choices of target" -- each with its own opportunity strike -- until opportunity strike fails, I'm fine with that, too (not that anyone asked).

I just think the card text is ambiguous enough that a front-page clarification/example is needed. It would be great if the example also made it clear whether an opponent can keep attempting to attack the same figure repeatedly -- which would seem to be the case if multiple attempts are generally allowed.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

You know, having looked through all the cards that have melee special attacks that target someone, one thing really stands out: They are either derived ranged special attacks, or are using 'targeted' were 'chosen' would make more sense. That makes me think that 'melee targeting' might be the result of some copy pasting and typos.

[Xotli]

Okay, first thing, guys: go back in this very thread and read posts #41 through #53.

Originally Posted by Grison

The bright red part (color added) above seems very precise in stating that only ranged attacks require targeting. Otherwise, why wouldn't it just say, "A figure must always target a figure it is attacking"?

Yeah, Scy and I were just lamenting the unfortunate choice of wording for that particular glossary entry. I wish I could tell you why they stated it that way when it doesn't really work the way that it (vaguely) implies that it does, but I don't know. I can only tell you two definite things:

• Regardless of what it says, it doesn't define the term at all, which is what a glossary entry should do. So it's not particularly useful as that.
• I think what Gb says in the posts I directed everyone to at the top of this post is pretty clear, and I'll take Gb's word over a vaguely-worded, non-defining WotC "glossary entry" any day.

Originally Posted by Shedim Kabal

I think Targeting for engaged figures is supported by the cards...

Very good. Note that that's pretty much the same list I present to Bats in the posts I reference.

Originally Posted by Shedim Kabal

For almost all (but not all) attacks choosing = targeting.

The easiest way to think of it is that targeting == choosing to attack. You can choose a figure to attack, or you can choose a figure for other things. "Choose" is commonly used instead of "target" in two situations:

1. It's a special power which is not an attack (e.g. Poisonous Acid Breath).
2. You get to choose other people to be affected by a Special Attack after you choose the target (e.g. Thunder Ram Assault).

Originally Posted by Grison

But I also agree with killercactus' perspective, in that I don't see why an opponent would get to choose a new figure after Opportunity Strike activates. The power states, "no dice are rolled for this attack." To me, that's a plain text indication that "this attack" is indeed an attack -- just one with no dice. Since the opponent's figure has attacked, it can't normally do so again without some other ability that allows it.

No, wait, that was never in question ... was it? The fact that you can choose a different target after Smoke Powder but you can't after Opportunity Strike has nothing to do with the word "target." Smoke Powder interrupts your attack just after the targeting; you can't choose the same target again because of the "no visible hit zones" wording. Opportunity Strike, OTOH, cancels your attack just after the targeting. No more attack, no choosing a different target.

Originally Posted by Grison

If the intention of the designers is explicitly to allow multiple/repeating "choices of target" -- each with its own opportunity strike -- until opportunity strike fails, I'm fine with that, too (not that anyone asked).

No, that's definitely not our intention. capsocrates was just asking why the attacker couldn't just say "oh, never mind, I didn't want to attack that person anyway" after Zog rolled for Opportunity Strike. For which the answer is: after you target, you don't get to change your mind, just like after you take your finger off the figure, you don't get to change your mind about where you moved it to.

Originally Posted by Grison

I just think the card text is ambiguous enough that a front-page clarification/example is needed.

Oh, sure, I've got no problem with that. Feel free to propose something.

[Shedim Kabal]

Originally Posted by Xotli

No, wait, that was never in question ... was it? The fact that you can choose a different target after Smoke Powder but you can't after Opportunity Strike has nothing to do with the word "target." Smoke Powder interrupts your attack just after the targeting; you can't choose the same target again because of the "no visible hit zones" wording. Opportunity Strike, OTOH, cancels your attack just after the targeting. No more attack, no choosing a different target.

That actually was the very question:

Originally Posted by 1Mmirg

You can choose to re-target and attack someone else (if available). (Targeting is pre-attack.)

It makes a lot more sense if Opportunity Strike ends the attack, than allows re-targeting...

[Grison]

Actually, the "repeated attempts" issue was indeed the major question, at least from my perspective:

Originally Posted by The CEE

That's a good point you bring up. If that's the case, I've been playing Zogross incorrectly. I'm not sure what would happen in the situation described in your original question.

Regardless of how "target" was defined, to me the overall card wording of Opportunity Strike didn't seem to support repeated attempts. I appreciate the confirmation that "no repeats" is indeed the intention.

With repect to a first-post FAQ entry, how about something like the following:

Q: If Opportunity Strike is successful, can the affected opponent choose a new target (as with the Nakita's Smoke Powder) and/or re-attempt their attack?

A: No. Opportunity strike does not prevent you from attacking like Smoke Powder; it negates the attack instead. Unless the opponent has multiple attacks, they're done.

[Crixus33]

Zogross Hardscale is probably my favorite C3V figure he also made me revise my belief that customs aren't compatible with official units. Thanks for changing my mind those who designed and play tested Zogross. Great job!

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Crixus33

Zogross Hardscale is probably my favorite C3V figure he also made me revise my belief that customs aren't compatible with official units. Thanks for changing my mind those who designed and play tested Zogross. Great job!

Now go and try Omegacron.

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by Shedim Kabal

That actually was the very question:

It makes a lot more sense if Opportunity Strike ends the attack, than allows re-targeting...

Oh, okay ... I thought we were talking about what caps asked about. I didn't realize this went all the way back to that comment from 1Mmirg. I think the confusion stems from the fact that 1Mmirg didn't quote the question he was answering. Here it is:

Originally Posted by wolfeman1968

Would it be safe to say...If I target a figure and they no longer have a visible hit zone then I just lost my turn, even if I could target someone else.
Or could I target another figure.

Now, granted, I can't speak for 1Mmirg. But I'm guessing what happened was that he just wasn't paying close attention to what Bo thread he was posting in, and the implication that it might have. Because his answer is absolutely correct: it just doesn't apply to Zogross. Opportunity Strike doesn't remove visible hit zones the way Smoke Powder does. Instead, "no dice are rolled for this attack, no defense dice are rolled, and the attacking figure receives one wound." It's really a different situation altogether.

Originally Posted by Grison

Q: If Opportunity Strike is successful, can the affected opponent choose a new target (as with the Nakita's Smoke Powder) and/or re-attempt their attack?

A: No. Opportunity strike does not prevent you from attacking like Smoke Powder; it negates the attack instead. Unless the opponent has multiple attacks, they're done.

Sounds pretty good. I might change "they're done" to something more like "their attack is over," just to be clear, but otherwise it sounds good.

[Dwarvenwarrior123]

He is sorta like a better Parimino who deals damage on his defy death. I like combining him with the Romans. I haven't tried him with Armocs or Greenscales though I plan to.

[Arch-vile]

Interesting, I've only ever played Zogross with Armocs/Greenscales. Does losing Tribal Protection still make Zogross worth it in a Roman build? I'd just attack Zogross rather than risk an Opportunity Strike wound.

[Arrow Grut]

Originally Posted by Arch-vile

Interesting, I've only ever played Zogross with Armocs/Greenscales. Does losing Tribal Protection still make Zogross worth it in a Roman build? I'd just attack Zogross rather than risk an Opportunity Strike wound.

But then your not attacking romans, thereby increasing their longevity... But yeah, he's not worth it almost at all.

[BeardBeyond]

My Repaint (to make him look more comparable to the Greenscales):