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  #1  
Old December 10th, 2007, 06:03 PM
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Public retractions and apologies

For those of you who were following the Golden Compass thread it got a bit nasty torwards the end. Unfortunately I think we had more of a misunderstanding than anything else.

At one point Grishnak had said the following

It is not dogmatic. But this is simply how science works. I'm sorry you were not taught that in school. Perhaps it points out the failures of our educational system.

I took this as a direct attack upon my intelligence and had already assumed he had called me irrational in a previous post. At this point I responded to his post out of dissapointment and resentment. I have always appreciated and respected Grishnak on these boards and it really stung to have him belittle me over my beliefs. I probably should have waited but what was done is done. I cannot stand the fact that people would choose their personal beliefs over relationships anyhow so I was severly dissapointed in all of this.


When I came home there was an apology letter in my box from Grish saying I mistook what he said. He informed me how I had read that was not his tone whatsoever and his PM was exactly who I thought Grish the man to be. If I acted in haste on my post then I sincerely apologize to Grish...it was not so much an attack on him as it was what I percieved he had said. Even as I read it now it still stings a bit but I will take Grish's previous character into account and believe what he says is true....he had no intention of bashing me for a personal belief.

So with that said, I am sorry Grish, the statements I made were in direct response to what I had percieved you were trying to say. If that was not your intent as you claim then I was wrong for not PMing you first and asking you about it. It did seem way out of character for you.

On another note Gary and I had a bit of a squabble as well. He had assumed by me saying that I enjoyed Science, and I like reading about it that I was staring down my nose at him. He then went on attack as well. The truth of the matter is that I love Science and I try to read scientific logs and texts all the time. I was not being sarcastic as it was taken. So to that misunderstanding I also apologize if I gave Gary that perception. It was nowhere near my intention.

And last but not least Grunge apologized publically to me in that thread as well. Again I think perhaps the transfer of words does not work out so well over a forum type setting. He basically lumped with me with people I would not ever want to be lumped with and I took it as a slam. Now that I look back on it I do not think that was his intention either so apolgy accepted GB. We were good anyways but I still wanted you to know I am not irked in any shape or form

So again I will attempt to take a step back from internet discussions of touchy subjects. They just do not translate well over a forum. This discussion we had I could sit and talk about all night with friends over a beer without getting the least bit annoyed or perturbed. And that was how I was discussing this when it appeared some of my favorite folks decided that my personal beliefs made me a lesser person in their eyes. Those kind of words coming from people I admire really fired me up much more so than if it had of come from some of the other folks around the boards.

But then it turns out that most of what was said was not said out of antagonism but just a bit misunderstood. So I will save these kind of discussions for when we are drinking a beer together and I cannot add my own inflections to your posts. Because while one person cannot see how a post can be misconstrued as being nasty the reciever cannot see how it was meant in any other way. The human side of the discussion is lost as is the body language. Small reassurances go a long way in a heated debate like this.
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  #2  
Old December 10th, 2007, 06:17 PM
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Having met all three of you guys, I can sincerely say that none of you offended me. Tolerance demands that we let go of our emotions when reading and contemplating the beliefs of another even when it hurts or seems absurd. Overtly attacking somebody is one thing but cleverly hiding a hurtful comment in among flowery wording can be even more damaging. I do believe that we all are NOT guilty of secretly trying to harm one another, but only of assuming that others are not giving forth the proper effort in understanding our position. I thank all who read any of the crap I posted and attempted to discern where I am coming from. I hope our next discussion meets a better fate than this one.


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  #3  
Old December 10th, 2007, 08:48 PM
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Some of the characteristics that I know Sky and I both share are integrity, honesty, a deep sense of honor, goodness of character and a high morale fiber. I get a sense of that from his posts in other threads. Wether we arrive at these characteristics through humanistic or religious channels is not important. The important thing is that we have all of these most noble attributes in common. I would be proud to call anyone with these attributes a friend regardless of any differences we might have in religion, politics or other subjects.

With that said I readily accept this public apology from you Sky. I will state publicly to you, as I did in my private e-mail, that I'm sorry that you got the sense that I was personally attacking you. Now, if I had meant what you perceived I was saying then I would have been way out of line and deserved your very strong response. I really thought, however, that I stated my thoughts in an articulate and pleasant way. I only attempted to add to the conversation from a Humanist viewpoint, even steer it back on track.

Therefore I was distressed that you took anything I wrote as a direct attack on you. That was never my intent. I'm sorry that you felt the way you did and would like to, at this time, apologize publicly to you as well. Not for my beliefs, mind you, but for the limited way I attempted to express my beliefs and for they way you took them.

Now there's no reason to go into any details about what or why we probably both misunderstood what each other was attempting to say. I think that Sky and I covered that together in our private e-mails to each other. And I'm really not sure what good it would do to discuss it further on this forum. It could be misread by others and the whole affair could get blown out of proportion again.

Again, as I mentioned in my private e-mail to Sky, I count many people of differing religious views as friends in my life and have had many lengthly, heated discussions about religion with them. And we have all walked away from these discussions as friends. I now know that Sky and I will do the same. This was simply a big misunderstanding brought about be the very nature of the forum and how difficult it is to convey one's meaning. And I know your response to me was certainly not what you really think of me and was born out of your passion for your beliefs.

And passion of belief is a good quality in a friend as well.

My Custom Terrain Thread: http://www.heroscapers.com/community...read.php?t=448
My tribute site to TFT/Melee & Wizards: http://www.meleewizards.com/
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  #4  
Old December 10th, 2007, 09:28 PM
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Old December 10th, 2007, 09:53 PM
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  #6  
Old December 10th, 2007, 10:15 PM
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Sky as I said in my PM this morning, I am very sorry. You did not appear nasty and really didn't say anything all that inflamatory. I just lost it plain and simple. I'm looking back at those last posts I made in that thread and I actually can't believe it was me that wrote them.
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Old December 10th, 2007, 10:25 PM
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Only see two posts in this thread that are long enough to have an apology and a retraction! :P

I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane.
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Old December 10th, 2007, 10:25 PM
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I would like to take a moment to wrap up one other thing. I don't mean to hijack this thread so soon but it does have a meaning if you'll just bear with me.

Earlier in the Golden Compass thread I mentioned that I had a problem with my eight year old son's school regarding the holidays and a teacher's aide that had said some pretty wrong things to him. Suffice it to say I had a very pleasant conversation with his lead teacher (as I think I might of mentioned). She then had a discussion with her staff and just today my son came home very happy and excited. The special education teacher (he's in an inclusion class) told him that she wishes she could come celebrate New Years with him because it sounds like a lot of fun and he got to draw Happy New Year pictures while all of the other kids drew other holiday scenes. (Just so you'll understand in our family we exchange gifts on the last day of the year.) It made his day and kept him from feeling so extremely different and alienated from the other children, like he did at the end of last week. See what a little understanding, a calm demeanor, a little tolerance and most importantly, a little communication amongst ourselves can do? I'm glad we've reached that point on this thread as well.

I also would like to thank the people who expressed concern over what had happened to my son. It did give me strength to handle the situation in a calm and adult fashion. It was unfortunate that this incident took place at the same time as I was posting on the Golden Compass thread. Perhaps some of my frustration fueled me to post more than I should have (believe it or not I've only got a post count of a little over 400 or so; and most of that has been helping others in the customizing terrain threads). I usually, for the most part, stay out of religious conversations such as that one. I will do my best to stay out of them again in the future.

(Now if we can just get the little girl in his class to understand what's bad about telling my son today that if he doesn't believe in Santa Claus then he's going to go to Hell. I'll leave it up to the trained educators at his school to handle that one. )

My Custom Terrain Thread: http://www.heroscapers.com/community...read.php?t=448
My tribute site to TFT/Melee & Wizards: http://www.meleewizards.com/
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Old December 10th, 2007, 11:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninthdoc
Only see two posts in this thread that are long enough to have an apology and a retraction! :P
I'm just apologizing. Sky titled the thread, not me. Just kidding.

I feel like a dog returning to his own vomit...
Quote:
Originally Posted by I
To believe there is an all-powerful God that someone can have a personal relationship with is what I call arrogance.
Retraction. Uncalled for and something I should be tarred and feathered for saying in such a manner. Even if someone might agree with this, it was a pretty insensative thing to say and a rude way of saying it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by I
To compare humanity metaphorically to an individual person, and to try and decide in what stage of life that person would be, is a ridiculous thing to do and not worth attempting.
This statement was a direct assualt on Sky for something he said that quite frankly I'm not sure why it got me riled up in the first place.

And the grand prize winner is...
Quote:
Originally Posted by I
I wasn't so polite with my lengthy post either, but when someone starts talking about how humble they are because they believe in a higher power, it really pushes my buttons. "Science is wonderful ... I enjoy reading about it." Good grief.
Major retraction. I was even trying to snatch this one back but Jotun quoted me on it too quickly.

There were other things I said that, while I may believe to be true, I really did not do a very good job of expressing in a civilized manor.

And here's the most damning part about the whole thing; I was sober. I'd like to use the excuse that I was drunk off my a55 when I wrote them but I can't. Good grief.
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Old December 10th, 2007, 11:25 PM
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You know, the hard feelings that were expressed in the Golden Compass thread is exactly why no one should go see that movie. I'm glad you all got religion.

*Ducks!*

I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane.
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Old December 10th, 2007, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninthdoc
You know, the hard feelings that were expressed in the Golden Compass thread is exactly why no one should go see that movie. I'm glad you all got religion.

*Ducks!*
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Old December 10th, 2007, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onacara
Quote:
Originally Posted by ninthdoc
You know, the hard feelings that were expressed in the Golden Compass thread is exactly why no one should go see that movie. I'm glad you all got religion.

*Ducks!*
Ah, I see my work here is done.

I've always been crazy, but it's kept me from going insane.
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