Age of Annihilation - Backer Trend and Discussion

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by nyys

Folks need to let go of how cheap Scape was when it first hit the shelves in 2004. Never mind the craziness factoring in today, just the mere fact that it's been nearly 20 years would change the price (upwards) significantly.

I'll say again, what would we get at a lower price point? I feel like the argument would have gone in the other direction. The lower price point would have felt like a rip off and some would be arguing that it's a cash grab and should have been a huge offering at an, albeit high cost, but there would be plenty of value. Lose-lose

I had my fence replaced about 15 years ago, it cost me about 6K. I got a quote the other day for getting it replaced… 13K. With the cost of lumber and labor going up so dramatically, it more than twice expensive.

I’ve tried to explain this before. When Hasbro released Heroscape originally, they met with retail buyers for the big box retailers at the time, Target, Walmart, ToysRUs. They made exclusive arrangements with all of them and in turn, the retailers pre-purchased thousands of copies at volume wholesale rates. This allowed the retailers to devote the shelf space and offer a low price point.

When it was first released, Walmart gave it shelf space on the shelf that would be eye level for a 9-13 year old boy. After Heroscape proved to be a good seller, they worked out a deal to devote additional space for expansion packs.

Later, when sales began to taper off or they had stock that wasn’t moving, the retailers started reclaiming shelf space, then eventually they moved it down one shelf, and at Target it went down to the bottom shelf.

Oil prices began to soar, and making Heroscape became way more expensive. WOTC wanted to get D&D into Walmart, and it became a convenient way to get Walmart on board. Make the box smaller and re-use miniatures from the D&D line. It worked for a while mostly with Walmart. If I recall correctly, they raised it to the 4th shelf above the eye level of kids 9-13.

Big box retail pricing has a lot to do with volume purchasing at wholesale in deals made long before the game is available. Hobby market works differently. Things are way more expensive to produce, and big box retailers have hard limits on what they are willing to price things at.

[rudyvalentine]

Originally Posted by nyys

Folks need to let go of how cheap Scape was when it first hit the shelves in 2004. Never mind the craziness factoring in today, just the mere fact that it's been nearly 20 years would change the price (upwards) significantly.

I'll say again, what would we get at a lower price point? I feel like the argument would have gone in the other direction. The lower price point would have felt like a rip off and some would be arguing that it's a cash grab and should have been a huge offering at an, albeit high cost, but there would be plenty of value. Lose-lose

Yeah it’s absolutely more expensive to produce and offering less for less wouldn’t be an even ratio of less for less.

My argument has always been why not make the retail offerings part of this campaign (just like they did in the Heroquest campaign).

It serves multiple purposes, but one it lets people support at a lower barrier of entry in terms of both cost and size (good luck finding a shelf to stick AoA on) and it highlights the incredible value of the all-in offering which in the long run gets you more all-in backers IMO.

[nyys]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

I had my fence replaced about 15 years ago, it cost me about 6K. I got a quote the other day for getting it replaced… 13K. With the cost of lumber and labor going up so dramatically, it more than twice expensive.

I’ve tried to explain this before. When Hasbro released Heroscape originally, they met with retail buyers for the big box retailers at the time, Target, Walmart, ToysRUs. They made exclusive arrangements with all of them and in turn, the retailers pre-purchased thousands of copies at volume wholesale rates. This allowed the retailers to devote the shelf space and offer a low price point.

When it was first released, Walmart gave it shelf space on the shelf that would be eye level for a 9-13 year old boy. After Heroscape proved to be a good seller, they worked out a deal to devote additional space for expansion packs.

Later, when sales began to taper off or they had stock that wasn’t moving, the retailers started reclaiming shelf space, then eventually they moved it down one shelf, and at Target it went down to the bottom shelf.

Oil prices began to soar, and making Heroscape became way more expensive. WOTC wanted to get D&D into Walmart, and it became a convenient way to get Walmart on board. Make the box smaller and re-use miniatures from the D&D line. It worked for a while mostly with Walmart. If I recall correctly, they raised it to the 4th shelf above the eye level of kids 9-13.

Big box retail pricing has a lot to do with volume purchasing at wholesale in deals made long before the game is available. Hobby market works differently. Things are way more expensive to produce, and big box retailers have hard limits on what they are willing to price things at.

And a lot of this feels like common sense. Maybe I know more than I realize, though doesn't feel like it. Wish there were a way to make people understand. Maybe it's just a vocal minority, but it's driving me nuts, especially since none of this seems like a giant leap to understand.

Originally Posted by rudyvalentine

My argument has always been why not make the retail offerings part of this campaign (just like they did in the Heroquest campaign).

Maybe they don't know, yet exactly, what the retail offering will look like. Market may be too volatile to project out that far. I dunno.

[brak88]

Another thing most casual people aren't taking into consideration is that there's way more background design work for this, compared to a reprint of graphics for heroquest. That's part of the reason for two million instead of Heroquest's one million goal.

It could work to our advantage though, since a lot of design work has been done already and cancelling all together won't get that money back. At least they're considering other options, but there's still time.

Hasbro surely spent way more than a million back then to get Heroscape going the first time around. It'd be awesome if they could do that here and be good with 4K backers. I wonder what the true break even point is at this campaign, because I imagine there's still going to be some alright pure profit occurring at the 8K point.

But I know comparing 8,000 sales to multiple big box contracts isn't close. It just saddens me how much cool stuff was created for this when the biggest complaint besides paint at this point is "too much stuff and too many money."

It's disheartening to think that working above and beyond seems to be shooting them in the foot. And it's odd to me to see many stating on social media that they wish the game would come back, only to be like "well, I really only wanted like 4x of a common squad and two heroes for $50. After ten years of wanting, I just wanted like one 500 point army worth of stuff."

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by nyys

And a lot of this feels like common sense. Maybe I know more than I realize, though doesn't feel like it. Wish there were a way to make people understand. Maybe it's just a vocal minority, but it's driving me nuts, especially since none of this seems like a giant leap to understand.

Maybe they don't know, yet exactly, what the retail offering will look like. Market may be too volatile to project out that far. I dunno.

For years I’ve watched people complain about the D&D line saying things like Hasbro ditched Heroscape and passed it off to WOTC. It’s human nature I guess, but in reality, if they didn’t do D&D scape, there would have been no scape at all for that time period. If anything, it was a save.

[brak88]

D&D scape has a lot of fun, more complex and deeper designs. Sure, maybe the variety of theme was lost a bit, but there's still great stuff in it.

[nyys]

Originally Posted by Grungebob

For years I’ve watched people complain about the D&D line saying things like Hasbro ditched Heroscape and passed it off to WOTC. It’s human nature I guess, but in reality, if they didn’t do D&D scape, there would have been no scape at all for that time period. If anything, it was a save.

I remember not being psyched about it (I'd be interested in exploring those old threads to see what I was actually saying), but if the alternative was no scape, then for me it's an easy choice.

In hindsight I'm glad it gave the game a little more 'official life.'

[rudyvalentine]

I remember the smaller size 1” bases were a point of contention back then. The more things change, am I right?

[Master Roshi]

I enjoy the D&D units; since I don't play that game, I don't recognize them as being a part of another established identity like I do with the Marvel units, so it's easier for me to just see them as more fantasy units. I personally wouldn't be interested in mixing Star Wars heroscape with classic heroscape because I'm too familiar with it

[EricTheGreat1999]

Originally Posted by nyys

Folks need to let go of how cheap Scape was when it first hit the shelves in 2004. Never mind the craziness factoring in today, just the mere fact that it's been nearly 20 years would change the price (upwards) significantly.

I'll say again, what would we get at a lower price point? I feel like the argument would have gone in the other direction. The lower price point would have felt like a rip off and some would be arguing that it's a cash grab and should have been a huge offering at an, albeit high cost, but there would be plenty of value. Lose-lose

With all due respect, this point of comparison does not achieve to win the argument here. If people don't want to spend 250$ US on a board game crowdfunding project with lacklustre marketing, no matter the price per unit, then they're not going to buy it.

Yea, you might get more bang out of your buck now by buying 1$ hotdogs at Costco in 2022, compared to when it was still 1$ over a decade ago. Doesn't mean that people are desperately lining up to buy 1$ hotdogs.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by rudyvalentine

I remember the smaller size 1” bases were a point of contention back then. The more things change, am I right?

The hope was that D&D players would rush out to Walmart and buy these, and that Walmart would see this and got on board the D&D train, and kids would buy them, and Heroscape fans would buy them etc.

[nyys]

Originally Posted by EricTheGreat1999

With all due respect, this point of comparison does not achieve to win the argument here. If people don't want to spend 250$ US on a board game crowdfunding project with lacklustre marketing, no matter the price per unit, then they're not going to buy it.

Yea, you might get more bang out of your buck now by buying 1$ hotdogs at Costco in 2022, compared to when it was still 1$ over a decade ago. Doesn't mean that people are desperately lining up to buy 1$ hotdogs.

Not suggesting at all that people spend $$ they don't have. $250 is a lot to spend regardless of the value.