Justice League Design *Brainstorming*

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

Just purely brainstorming here:

All the new designs are given the same class, we'll use Defender for this example.

Fwiw, I like the change the class idea a bit more than the marker idea (less hardware, cuts out other synergies in a pleasing way), though I'd go with Champion or League Member as the class.

That said, both you and I know at this point that we'd be settling for an OK idea, rather than going for a platinum one (johnny, I'm going to convert you to what we're doing yet!).

You've made a ton of excellent posts here that, to me at least, really detail why the Justice League Strategy Glyphs are such a good idea (working title there).

Originally Posted by Yodaking

Sock, what you are talking about with lynch pin units to form the team around can be achieved for the JL in the same way. The glyph system isn't needed to achieve the same result that previous figure cards achieved.

That's absolutely true. But I think Sock and I are both arguing that the Glyphs are a fairly elegant way to achieve better and unique results that will make this team play in a way really unique to this team and that will express its personality a lot better than mirroring the Avengers would (it's a slanted mirror, but still a mirror).

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

If the markers end up being the way to go, of course I'll be happy. I'll also be annoyed that what we had was decent to begin with, only we needed to cover 20 other options before others could see it.

I think "decent" is the keyword here, which is why the only annoying thing would be to fall back to "decent" when, IMO, we've arrived on great (and could get greater still if we work to hone it - Japes' idea took our path up to the next level in a major way already, for instance).

Originally Posted by Aggressive Sock

With that said, I legitimately feel these Justice League Glyphs are something special. They are "WOW" they have "Umph".

I really think we're on the path to johnny's "Rome" here. And I don't think they're as new in a scary/gamebreaking way as some folks seem to think in the current version. They're basically just their own type of Utility Glyph at this point. The JL hub (Martian Manhunter 2.0 most likely) is just bringing Justice League Strategies to the game, and expressing those in glyphs.

Justice League is a collection of individuals. Their strategies have always been about what those individuals can do to make each other better. This approach will be endlessly flexible and endlessly customizable and will leave tons of room for individual characters NOT called out on the glyphs to join Justice League armies and benefit from the powers as well, because the powers will be slanted toward team play and towards helping other figures (as many of our examples have shown). They'll just be thematic in that they'll call out specific iconic characters for those boosts to occur.

Originally Posted by Dysole

Initial thought. It feels like a lot of work for little gain.

It should be no more work than Batman 2.0 was, really. So I think it's extremely doable. It's designing one Unique Hero instead of three as well, so there might actually be a work efficiency advantage all things told.

And I disagree with the "little gain" of course, but that kind of moves to the next key point:

Originally Posted by Dysole

~Dysole, who likes the idea of both JL and Avengers utilizing similar concepts aka markers

I think we have two key camps right now, philosophically. We have those like Dysole, who view the Justice League as kind of Avengers Blue and the Avengers as Justice League Red - they're thematic parallels, just set in different universes, so it's nice and consistent for them just to mirror each other with slight tweaks to make each unique (let me know if I'm mischaracterizing you here, btw, please!)

Then there are those like johnny, who view the Justice League as a completely unique group that deserves completely unique treatment. It's ironic that he seems to most favor hanging synergy on class, since that's been done to death in terms of team synergy to this point, IMO, but that's an aside. johnny's looking not for a good idea, or a great one, but the "perfect" idea, and rejects treading down a path too similar to the Avengers.

So there seems to be the "Avenger Mirror" camp and the "Wow Factor" camp. I'm in the "Wow Factor" camp, and I think the Justice League Strategy Glyphs have it.

Originally Posted by japes

When I proposed the glyph system I mentioned that I thought it would be difficult to balance and cost which is why my preferred is still a Marker system.

I don't think it would be significantly more difficult to balance and cost than Batman 2.0's Utility Glyphs are. Your giving us that template to work off really helps this all fall into place, IMO. It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.

[dok]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

So there seems to be the "Avenger Mirror" camp and the "Wow Factor" camp. I'm in the "Wow Factor" camp, and I think the Justice League Strategy Glyphs have it.

Haha. If I saw it that way I'd be in the wow factor camp. But, unsurprisingly, I don't see it that way.

I am of the opinion that the final product should have wow factor, but that that is achieved by creative new twists on existing mechanics. When I read all this disucssion of team cards and strategy glyphs, I just see a lot of extra rules.

Now, new extra rules can be good, or even necessary, at times. But don't confuse new rules with "wow factor". "Wow factor" comes from cool gameplay mechanics. That can be achieved using a whole new set of rules, sure, but it can also be achieved by using existing ones in new and creative ways.

Creating a whole new set of rules and a new type of card doesn't guarantee "wow factor". Creating another team that uses markers to denote its members doesn't prevent it. These are simply tools to achieve a goal.

[IAmBatman]

Absolutely, dok, I don't disagree with your overall analysis. Rather than "Wow Factor" (as less of a shameless sales pitch ) I probably could've said: emphasis on uniqueness.

I really don't think the path Sock and I are promoting is reinventing the wheel. It's just taking the Utility Glyph concept and tweaking it to house team synergies, just like the marker idea is tweaking markers to house team synergies.

I just happen to like how the glyph mechanics work a bit better in terms of how they communicate theme, what they allow us to accomplish, and so forth.

[Arkham]

Originally Posted by dok

I am of the opinion that the final product should have wow factor, but that that is achieved by creative new twists on existing mechanics. When I read all this disucssion of team cards and strategy glyphs, I just see a lot of extra rules.

Now, new extra rules can be good, or even necessary, at times. But don't confuse new rules with "wow factor". "Wow factor" comes from cool gameplay mechanics. That can be achieved using a whole new set of rules, sure, but it can also be achieved by using existing ones in new and creative ways.

Creating a whole new set of rules and a new type of card doesn't guarantee "wow factor". Creating another team that uses markers to denote its members doesn't prevent it. These are simply tools to achieve a goal.

I just have to make clear here, that the Team Card is no more. There is no extra set of rules needed, no change to game mechanics.

How the Glyphs work is essentially the same as Batman II or Apocalypse when selecting glyphs at the start of the game. You can only select "Justice League Glyphs" as Batman can only select "Utility Glyphs". The Glyphs themselves feature a special power on each, representive of a character in the Justice League. In order to use said power, you must control the represented Hero.

That's it. It's literally using a mechanic that is already in the game, in a creative new way. It's being used to have a modifiable synergy based on who you draft.

No new rules. No new card mechanic. Just so we're clear here, because I feel some still are lingering on the "Team Card" idea that was initially proposed, when this isn't that.