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  #49  
Old May 23rd, 2019, 08:33 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

I personally just don't like messing with hit zones with a mechanic as it's always struck me as a bit unintuitive and messy, but that's my own gripe. 4 move and blink of 2 seems fine with me.
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  #50  
Old May 23rd, 2019, 11:16 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

I just think we need to figure out how these guys should be played and then make sure we have both the theme and the actual mechanics in line with that. Right now, if I was a new player I wouldn’t be sure what to do with them. Do I move ‘em around to get to ranged figures or do I wait around with my invisibility suits active? We may almost be better off giving them no hitzones at all.

In other words, let’s focus on Blink for this design.

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  #51  
Old May 24th, 2019, 01:12 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I'd be OK with getting outvoted on 3/3 Blink.

And yes, being "invisible" seems more thematically appropriate to me than being tougher/stealth.
Ah, I see. I took Phased Out as being them physically teleporting off of the battlefield when not active or otherwise completely disappearing, not them being invisible.

I do prefer 3 move for blink and 3 base move if both can be used every turn (and I disagree with negation being a strike against it), but I won't press it if everyone else feels differently.

I think that flameslayer touched on a much more important topic, though:
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Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
I just think we need to figure out how these guys should be played and then make sure we have both the theme and the actual mechanics in line with that. Right now, if I was a new player I wouldn’t be sure what to do with them. Do I move ‘em around to get to ranged figures or do I wait around with my invisibility suits active? We may almost be better off giving them no hitzones at all.

In other words, let’s focus on Blink for this design.
What is the intended playstyle for these guys? Are they assassins? Right now, they feel pretty much like the Ninjas of the Northern Space to me (which to be fair, is an archetype we can use, but it doesn't scream alien to me).

Honestly, a stronger Blink + Phase Grab would be more satisfying to me than Blink + Phased Out or other ranged defensive power, both in terms of thematically being an alien that grabs and abducts people and mechanically being unique. I'm curious to hear if others disagree, though, since I won't deny that I could be the only one to view Phase Grab as being pretty distinctly alien feeling.
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  #52  
Old May 24th, 2019, 01:16 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

I suggested phase grab mostly to tie in to the four big arms these guys have. I do still like it conceptually, though, so you aren’t entirely alone.

If we want to make their powers a bit bigger and splashier, but perhaps more unwieldy, we could combine a version of Phase Grab with straight-up Teleport from Tuk-Bak-Ra. The ability to move 10 spaces across the battlefield mitigates the need for a defensive power and gives more weight to the option to move an opponent’s figure. If we did that, though, I would rather see these guys at 3 or even 2 attack as opposed to 4.
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  #53  
Old May 24th, 2019, 01:19 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Combining Phase Grab with a true Teleport sounds absolutely bonkers, and I wish we could explore it. Unfortunately, I feel like the relative lack of terrain in the Arena of the Planeswalkers sets makes the same-level restriction practically nonexistent, which could pose a significant problem.

Last edited by Astroking112; May 24th, 2019 at 01:21 AM. Reason: Darn cardboard.
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  #54  
Old May 24th, 2019, 02:12 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

How about just making them teleporting beatsticks? Blink could just be a straight up Teleport but with a move of 5 and same level requirement. Their normal move could be 4 to make them “feel” like they are heavier units already and that they really aren’t used to walking/climbing. The Crypoliths give us some heights, and stacking cardboard flats also helps a bit.

I’m still not sold on the Phase Grab. Wouldn’t they be punching/phase clawing somebody instead of grabbing them for a wild ride through time and space?

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  #55  
Old May 24th, 2019, 01:46 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I'd be OK with getting outvoted on 3/3 Blink.

And yes, being "invisible" seems more thematically appropriate to me than being tougher/stealth.
Ah, I see. I took Phased Out as being them physically teleporting off of the battlefield when not active or otherwise completely disappearing, not them being invisible.
I put invisible in quotes as in "no visible hit zone", but yes the theme is them not physically being present. As noted earlier that does have a slight issue with melee still being able to attack them. We could go to something like, "SPOOKY ALIENS cannot be attacked while there are no revealed Order Markers on this card". That's stronger both mechanically and thematically, but in an endgame scenario an opponent who wins initiative wastes an OM, which is a big advantage.
Another alternative might be, "SPOOKY ALIENS have no visible hit zone while there is at least one unrevealed Order Marker on this card." They become a parking spot for your X that way, though. Maybe even "exactly one" like Shiori, so they can still use the X to stay phased, but if you want more than one OM on them they'll only be phased part of the time. Or even revealed instead of unrevealed, that way an opponent that wins initiative can get the drop on them before they go full phase monster mode. Actually, I might like that one best...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I do prefer 3 move for blink and 3 base move if both can be used every turn (and I disagree with negation being a strike against it), but I won't press it if everyone else feels differently.
I suspect we'll put it to a vote sooner or later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I think that flameslayer touched on a much more important topic, though:
Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
I just think we need to figure out how these guys should be played and then make sure we have both the theme and the actual mechanics in line with that. Right now, if I was a new player I wouldn’t be sure what to do with them. Do I move ‘em around to get to ranged figures or do I wait around with my invisibility suits active? We may almost be better off giving them no hitzones at all.

In other words, let’s focus on Blink for this design.
What is the intended playstyle for these guys? Are they assassins? Right now, they feel pretty much like the Ninjas of the Northern Space to me (which to be fair, is an archetype we can use, but it doesn't scream alien to me).

Honestly, a stronger Blink + Phase Grab would be more satisfying to me than Blink + Phased Out or other ranged defensive power, both in terms of thematically being an alien that grabs and abducts people and mechanically being unique. I'm curious to hear if others disagree, though, since I won't deny that I could be the only one to view Phase Grab as being pretty distinctly alien feeling.
I think Blink + Phased Out is a strong thematic combo, possibly pending finding the sweet spot for Phased Out. They do feel a little bit like the Ninjas, but so what? That doesn't make them not-alien. I said before that I like the idea of Phase Grab, I'm just not sure I like it on these guys in a Master Set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
How about just making them teleporting beatsticks? Blink could just be a straight up Teleport but with a move of 5 and same level requirement. Their normal move could be 4 to make them “feel” like they are heavier units already and that they really aren’t used to walking/climbing. The Crypoliths give us some heights, and stacking cardboard flats also helps a bit.

I’m still not sold on the Phase Grab. Wouldn’t they be punching/phase clawing somebody instead of grabbing them for a wild ride through time and space?
Teleport as noted is pretty strong when there's a lack of terrain. It doesn't quite hit the right thematic notes for me, either. And I wouldn't like lowering their attack to make Phase Grab happen, since as you say they should be punching and clawing with those, so 4 Attack looks good.

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  #56  
Old May 24th, 2019, 02:31 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Getting slapped around by four spooky arms sounds more like a street fighter character than some sort of alien to me. Again, though, I'm not deeply committed to the Phase Grab direction. I could see Teleport/Phase Grab working with stats of something like 2/5 or 3/4. A more beatstick approach then makes sense for 4/3 stats. I'm still a little iffy on Phased Out but it seems like it's still being iterated on so that's fine.
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  #57  
Old May 24th, 2019, 02:36 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I put invisible in quotes as in "no visible hit zone", but yes the theme is them not physically being present. As noted earlier that does have a slight issue with melee still being able to attack them. We could go to something like, "SPOOKY ALIENS cannot be attacked while there are no revealed Order Markers on this card". That's stronger both mechanically and thematically, but in an endgame scenario an opponent who wins initiative wastes an OM, which is a big advantage.
Another alternative might be, "SPOOKY ALIENS have no visible hit zone while there is at least one unrevealed Order Marker on this card." They become a parking spot for your X that way, though. Maybe even "exactly one" like Shiori, so they can still use the X to stay phased, but if you want more than one OM on them they'll only be phased part of the time. Or even revealed instead of unrevealed, that way an opponent that wins initiative can get the drop on them before they go full phase monster mode. Actually, I might like that one best...
If they are meant to be physically phased out, then I don't think that making them invisible carries out that theme. Removing hit zones feels more like Phantom Walk to me, where there are obvious thematic ties, but not in the way that we're looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I think Blink + Phased Out is a strong thematic combo, possibly pending finding the sweet spot for Phased Out. They do feel a little bit like the Ninjas, but so what? That doesn't make them not-alien. I said before that I like the idea of Phase Grab, I'm just not sure I like it on these guys in a Master Set.
Blink + Phased Out (at least currently) doesn't feel like it's quite there yet to me. As I mentioned, there's nothing wrong with following the style of the ninjas, but that doesn't feel perfectly aligned with the alien theme. It feels like an assassin, which feels more in tune with ninjas (of course) or even phantoms. Given that HeroScape didn't have any true "sci-fi aliens" like we're designing, I feel like we should lean more into the alien tropes and try to make a playstyle that's reminiscent of it rather than away from it. We can still take them down this route, but I want to make sure that's the direction that we're intending.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Teleport as noted is pretty strong when there's a lack of terrain. It doesn't quite hit the right thematic notes for me, either. And I wouldn't like lowering their attack to make Phase Grab happen, since as you say they should be punching and clawing with those, so 4 Attack looks good.
As All Your Pie noted, I think that being able to grab onto other figures suits the four arms pretty well (and it justifies them also attacking that turn, if we wanted to go that way). Having 4 attack is neat representation of four arms as well, but I'd personally be fine with either callout with a slight preference towards the grab, given that it matches the alien feel more.
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Old May 24th, 2019, 02:47 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

I guess I see (literally, what I first think of when I look at the figures) these guys more as the menacing assassin/beatdown type of sci-fi monster that is hunting the heroes and turning up in the worst places to kill them, rather than one that "does necessarily alien things" like teleporting and abducting people through other dimensions. As far as phasing goes, in my mind it's more of an in-and-out thing than full on disappearing here and reappearing there (hence Phase Out vs Teleportation).

Any thoughts in particular on any of these other potential directions for Phased Out?

Quote:
SPOOKY ALIENS cannot be attacked while there are no revealed Order Markers on this card.
Quote:
SPOOKY ALIENS have no visible hit zone while there is at least one unrevealed Order Marker on this card.
Quote:
SPOOKY ALIENS have no visible hit zone while there is exactly one unrevealed Order Marker on this card.
Quote:
SPOOKY ALIENS have no visible hit zone while there is at least one revealed Order Marker on this card.

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  #59  
Old May 24th, 2019, 03:03 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

I like:
Quote:
SPOOKY ALIENS have no visible hit zones while there are no revealed Order Markers on this card.
Thematically they phase out at the start of the game until they attack then have to wait till the end of each round to phase out again. Makes you want to use turn 3 on them while they are outside of range as well as helps if you loose initiative, but this is probably the most nerfed of this power's options.
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  #60  
Old May 24th, 2019, 03:14 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Leyline Phantoms) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
I guess I see (literally, what I first think of when I look at the figures) these guys more as the menacing assassin/beatdown type of sci-fi monster that is hunting the heroes and turning up in the worst places to kill them, rather than one that "does necessarily alien things" like teleporting and abducting people through other dimensions. As far as phasing goes, in my mind it's more of an in-and-out thing than full on disappearing here and reappearing there (hence Phase Out vs Teleportation).
Rapidly blinking in and out of existence doesn't match the "menacing alien" feel to me. It feels more in line with morning cartoon aliens, disappearing and reappearing where they like, but not necessarily interdimensional monsters. My preference is the more "classic" style of aliens because that feels more in line with how HeroScape explored different genres and its clear Saturday morning cartoon influences, but if we wanted to go with a kind of alien that shows up to beat up some people when they least expect it, I think that a better teleport fits that theme more.

If we really want the defensive power over anything else, this is what I would personally suggest:
Quote:
SPOOKY ALIENS cannot be attacked by a normal attack while there is exactly one unrevealed Order Markers on this card.
It solves the melee problem and avoids rules issues and a lack of counterplay by being weak to Special Attacks. It's still very strong, though, and it would probably be worth making the thematic sacrifice of copying Shiori and only making it work with one unrevealed Order Marker on the card.
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