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  #25  
Old May 14th, 2019, 09:16 AM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
With some consideration, my full draft would be:

Kaladbolg (or whatever)

Life 8
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 6
Defense 3
Points: 160-180ish?

Gravity Crush/Mass Implosion SA
Range Special. Attack Special.
All figures adjacent to Kaladbolg are affected by Gravity Crush Special Attack. Roll a number of attack dice equal to the number of figures adjacent to [figure name], up to a maximum of 5 dice. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.

Vortex Glare
After Kaladbolg rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's non-adjacent figure, if that figure is small or medium and Kaladbolg did not receive any wounds from the attack, you may immediately place that figure on any empty space adjacent to Kaladbolg. Figures placed with Vortex Glare will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Having this figure's pull power as a defensive ability is probably something only I'll be a fan of, but Vortex Glare could easily be something more standard and the core of the design would still work the same.
This is actually closer to what I was going to propose, but you guys have been posting a lot! I would maybe even change Gravity Crush to 1+Special (i.e. counting himself toward the gravitational power) and maybe also remove the cap. Blastatrons don't have a cap, though arguably this would need one since it can affect multiple figures at once (on the other hand, Blastatrons get 4 attacks, so...)

I don't like Vortex Glare (better with a different name, but still), but I do agree another power should be able to pull figures adjacent to the Ruiner. Here's what I was going to submit before everyone beat me to the punch:

GRAVITY PULL
Before/Instead of/After moving, place each Small or Medium figure within 2 clear sight spaces adjacent to the Ruiner.

GRAVITY CRUSH
Instead of attacking, roll the d20 once for each adjacent figure. Add that figure's Height. If you roll X or higher, that figure receives 1 wound.


Pull could be paired with whatever we want its offensive power to be. Before moving would make an interesting restriction; instead of moving would really curb its power; and after moving could even be paired with a slower Move of 4. Small/Medium allows the Firecats to be a soft counter within the same set.

Crush hopefully helps satisfy the desire for referencing Size or Height, if we still wanted to go that direction. One reason for going away from the Special Attack was that we seem to be planning a lot of those already just in this Pod. That's the kind of bigger picture thing we need to be keeping our eyes on as the core group. I'd be less worried about it if we're pulling away from that direction on the Leyline Phantoms, but that's still to be determined.

We'll also have to keep an eye on movement powers it seems. The quoted stats are pulled straight from the AotP unit, iirc, which works for the figure, IMO.

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  #26  
Old May 14th, 2019, 09:41 AM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

I like those two powers a lot.
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  #27  
Old May 14th, 2019, 09:42 AM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

Alright, I alluded to trying to come up with a culmination power of all of our ideas and here’s what I’ve got...

Gravity Crush Special Attack
Range Special. Attack Special.
You must place as many figures within 2 clear sight spaces as possible adjacent to Ruiner. Count the number of figures pulled adjacent to Ruiner and roll that many attack dice once for all figures adjacent to Ruiner. Medium figures subtract one from their defense. Large figures subtract 2 from their defense dice. Huge figures subtract 3 from their defense dice. Figures moved by Gravity Crush Special Attack will not receive leaving engagement attacks.

That would probably have to be this guy’s only ability, but it allows a lot to happen. The most notable is that L/H figures can be moved, unlike most movement powers. Saylind and the Glyph of Summoning provide precedent for this. His max attack is 8, although this will be extremely rare because he gets the huge attack from pulling figures in, not the figures adjacent to him. This variant allows us to control his power and price level. Mostly because the other player is unlikely to let him pull 8 minis at a time.

Plus, unit size is still considered “Bigger” figures are weaker against it, but they generally have better stats anyway.

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  #28  
Old May 14th, 2019, 09:44 AM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

I think something we need to remember is that this is a master set. We want to go with simplicity wherever we can, and right now I think NB’s proposed abilities hit that better.
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  #29  
Old May 14th, 2019, 09:55 AM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

I’m not sold on it being much more difficult than NB’s. It combines the GravPull into Earth Slam. The biggest caveat being that the number of dice rolled is based upon number of figures actually moved. If that part was replaced with a static attack, then it would be GravPull+Earth Slam, which isn’t that difficult.

Edit: And the “first” posted version of Grav Crush was the simplest of all the powers in this thread

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  #30  
Old May 14th, 2019, 10:01 AM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I think something we need to remember is that this is a master set. We want to go with simplicity wherever we can, and right now I think NB’s proposed abilities hit that better.
To be fair, my powers were shorthand, not full legal text.

One more thing to think about: C3V is working on some eldritch monsters as well as Demons, so we need to make sure any synergy there is intended or avoided as necessary. I think, rather than "from a black hole", we can just call this thing "from the void".

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  #31  
Old May 14th, 2019, 11:38 AM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
Kaladbolg (or whatever)

Life 8
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 6
Defense 3
Points: 160-180ish?

Gravity Crush/Mass Implosion SA
Range Special. Attack Special.
All figures adjacent to Kaladbolg are affected by Gravity Crush Special Attack. Roll a number of attack dice equal to the number of figures adjacent to [figure name], up to a maximum of 5 dice. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.

Vortex Glare
After Kaladbolg rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's non-adjacent figure, if that figure is small or medium and Kaladbolg did not receive any wounds from the attack, you may immediately place that figure on any empty space adjacent to Kaladbolg. Figures placed with Vortex Glare will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Having this figure's pull power as a defensive ability is probably something only I'll be a fan of, but Vortex Glare could easily be something more standard and the core of the design would still work the same.
I'm good with this version of Gravity Crush, but while Vortex Glare is interesting, I'd prefer a more active version of the power. Like NB said, I'd even be fine with starting at 1 attack for the Crush and then adding one for every adjacent enemy.

The statline works for me, although if we need to increase the points much further because of the final power set and want to tweak some things to match, I would propose a little bit more defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
GRAVITY PULL
Before/Instead of/After moving, place each Small or Medium figure within 2 clear sight spaces adjacent to the Ruiner.

GRAVITY CRUSH
Instead of attacking, roll the d20 once for each adjacent figure. Add that figure's Height. If you roll X or higher, that figure receives 1 wound.


Pull could be paired with whatever we want its offensive power to be. Before moving would make an interesting restriction; instead of moving would really curb its power; and after moving could even be paired with a slower Move of 4. Small/Medium allows the Firecats to be a soft counter within the same set.

Crush hopefully helps satisfy the desire for referencing Size or Height, if we still wanted to go that direction. One reason for going away from the Special Attack was that we seem to be planning a lot of those already just in this Pod. That's the kind of bigger picture thing we need to be keeping our eyes on as the core group. I'd be less worried about it if we're pulling away from that direction on the Leyline Phantoms, but that's still to be determined.

We'll also have to keep an eye on movement powers it seems. The quoted stats are pulled straight from the AotP unit, iirc, which works for the figure, IMO.
This is the direction for Gravity Pull that I thought we would go in initially, so I'm glad to see it being proposed. I think that it works best as an after moving power, because the other two options will likely be as unsatisfying as trying to set up Dünd. It's certainly a way to nerf it, but I think that it comes at a significant cost to the enjoyment of playing the figure.

Gravity Crush is interesting. I'm not especially fond of adding height here, actually, but that's because the difference between adding 4 or 5 to a D20 feels less impactful than an extra attack die. It's certainly still unique, but when combined with a pull power that can't bring the bigger figures in, I think that the Ruiner would struggle to reach the figures where it really makes a difference. If Gravity Pull worked with Large figures, I'd be much more of a fan.

The point about Special Attacks is a good one. I admittedly have been focusing more on the other units than the Leyline Phantoms, so I'll try to get caught up there within the next couple of days if I can.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post
Alright, I alluded to trying to come up with a culmination power of all of our ideas and here’s what I’ve got...

Gravity Crush Special Attack
Range Special. Attack Special.
You must place as many figures within 2 clear sight spaces as possible adjacent to Ruiner. Count the number of figures pulled adjacent to Ruiner and roll that many attack dice once for all figures adjacent to Ruiner. Medium figures subtract one from their defense. Large figures subtract 2 from their defense dice. Huge figures subtract 3 from their defense dice. Figures moved by Gravity Crush Special Attack will not receive leaving engagement attacks.

That would probably have to be this guy’s only ability, but it allows a lot to happen. The most notable is that L/H figures can be moved, unlike most movement powers. Saylind and the Glyph of Summoning provide precedent for this. His max attack is 8, although this will be extremely rare because he gets the huge attack from pulling figures in, not the figures adjacent to him. This variant allows us to control his power and price level. Mostly because the other player is unlikely to let him pull 8 minis at a time.

Plus, unit size is still considered “Bigger” figures are weaker against it, but they generally have better stats anyway.
I actually think that this is a bit too complex. The act of placing figures adjacent to the Ruiner and the actual attack warrant being separated in my eyes, since they're practically two powers already. I'm not overly fond of referencing the size/height in the group attack SA, since the idea of pulling in figures and dealing more damage based on engagement already fulfills the gravity theme.
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  #32  
Old May 14th, 2019, 08:58 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Design

The defensive version of the pull is more of an idea I threw out than something I'm committed to, but I will still offer a bit of elaboration on it. It adds some anti-range ability to a figure that currently is best against melee, but with 3 defense isn't so oppressive that ranged figures would never risk the shot. I think it could make for an interesting dynamic in the place of ranged figures simply trying as hard as possible to keep their distance.

That said, if we aren't going with that then I could see some tweaks to the statline (I wasn't aware I had copied the AotP one, heh). I could see 4D 6L as opposed to 3D 8L. I'm not really a fan of 4D 8L, that seems like we're just arbitrarily cranking up the numbers.

Of course, stats are less important than powers/overall direction. For Vortex Pull, the ability to move around your own figures is interesting but I don't know that I want this figure to be able to cart around several squads of your own units with it. With the short range on the pull it might not be an issue, but we'd have to spend some time testing that. Overall I agree that we don't want to make it too similar to chain grab or other powers that convey a kind of particular theme, though.

For Special Attack vs. Autowound, I'll note that we're also discussing autowound/destroy powers on the Lanterns, and it wouldn't be any less weird to have an overabundance of those in the pod. I agree, though, that we don't want to get to the last few pods feeling like we have to clamp down on certain types of mechanics for the consistency of the set. Personally, I feel that SA is the most obvious implementation of Gravity Crush here, where as we could do something else with the teleportation theme, but that's an easy call for me as I don't much care for Telefrag.
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  #33  
Old May 15th, 2019, 09:52 AM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
The defensive version of the pull is more of an idea I threw out than something I'm committed to, but I will still offer a bit of elaboration on it. It adds some anti-range ability to a figure that currently is best against melee, but with 3 defense isn't so oppressive that ranged figures would never risk the shot. I think it could make for an interesting dynamic in the place of ranged figures simply trying as hard as possible to keep their distance.

That said, if we aren't going with that then I could see some tweaks to the statline (I wasn't aware I had copied the AotP one, heh). I could see 4D 6L as opposed to 3D 8L. I'm not really a fan of 4D 8L, that seems like we're just arbitrarily cranking up the numbers.

Of course, stats are less important than powers/overall direction. For Vortex Pull, the ability to move around your own figures is interesting but I don't know that I want this figure to be able to cart around several squads of your own units with it. With the short range on the pull it might not be an issue, but we'd have to spend some time testing that. Overall I agree that we don't want to make it too similar to chain grab or other powers that convey a kind of particular theme, though.

For Special Attack vs. Autowound, I'll note that we're also discussing autowound/destroy powers on the Lanterns, and it wouldn't be any less weird to have an overabundance of those in the pod. I agree, though, that we don't want to get to the last few pods feeling like we have to clamp down on certain types of mechanics for the consistency of the set. Personally, I feel that SA is the most obvious implementation of Gravity Crush here, where as we could do something else with the teleportation theme, but that's an easy call for me as I don't much care for Telefrag.
I'm OK with a relative weakness to range, unless we have a good thematic reason/power. Lots of large/high point figures don't have anything special in that regard. I could get behind 4D/6L, but that may come down the line in playtesting more. The intent wasn't to make him a "Carry" figure, so that's something to keep an eye on.

And you're right about autowounds being another big picture item to track (I may make note of those in a main thread somewhere). I think we can try not to do both the Ruiner and the Phantoms the same way, at least (though Phantoms seem to have gone away from either at the moment).

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  #34  
Old May 17th, 2019, 05:31 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Design

The anti-range defensive aspect is interesting, but it ultimately feels a little too defensive for a huge figure with an aggressive statline to me. I prefer the more active Vortex Pulls that we've seen, even if they do allow for some "carrying" of your own figures. I can't imagine it being that useful in practice if it only has a range of 2 spaces, though, even if you can place them in front of the Ruiner to get some more free movement. It's a noteworthy trick, but I don't think it'll overwhelm the other aspects of the design.
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Old May 17th, 2019, 09:03 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Design

If we want to discourage carrying allies, we could add "If Eldrazi uses Gravity Pull this turn, it must attack with Gravity Crush SA/use Gravity Crush this turn" somewhere. Makes sense thematically, too: it's either running around smacking things with its normal attack, or activating all of its gravity powers.

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Old May 17th, 2019, 09:09 PM
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Re: [Pod 0] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Design

I'm fine with that clause since it's thematic enough, but it won't discourage pulling a single ally too much if Gravity Crush gains strength with each engaged figure.
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