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  #13  
Old May 12th, 2019, 07:19 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Gravity Crush Special Attack
Range 1. Attack Special.
When attacking with Gravity Crush Special Attack, roll X attack dice, where X is the height of the defending figure.
It was a terrible idea there and it's still terrible here. Nothing needs to be rolling 12+ dice, not even this guy. Hulk only goes to 11 for crying out loud! This is a much more palatable alternative:

Gravity Crush Special Attack
Range 1. Attack Special.
When attacking with Gravity Crush Special Attack, roll attack dice based on the defending figure's Size. Roll 2 attack dice against Small figures. Roll 4 attack dice against Medium figures. Roll 6 attack dice against Large figures. Roll 8 attack dice against Huge figures.

I also dig the idea for another power of gravity pulling figures toward him and/or affecting movement-based powers.

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  #14  
Old May 12th, 2019, 07:35 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

A single attack of 4 versus almost the entire MS (even with GravPull) is pretty uninspiring though, NB. Mimring/Grimnak/Torky all had some sort of high-powered smexy that led them to being particularly fun within their respective master sets. Going 3/6/9/12 might be a little better, but still breaks 11 dice quite quickly.

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  #15  
Old May 12th, 2019, 08:02 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

Now I'm on desktop. Here's my custom.

Spoiler Alert!


I like Gravity Well in general, but I don't know how many other figures in the MS will have Flying/movement abilities. If we're designing this to be somewhat self-contained it may feel odd to have him neuter just one or two other figures.

Do not like an SA based just on the height. It sounds good in theory, but it runs into the problem I have with Gravity Well - how many figures in the set are going to be anything other than Medium 5?
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  #16  
Old May 12th, 2019, 11:03 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Your Pie View Post
For an Eldritch Horror, we should definitely work on narrowing down exactly which thematic aspect of that trope we want to run with. Gravity works well as a cosmic/alien sort of power, but we could also run with a theme of madness or unknowability which would give us a wholly different power set.

For Gravity Crush, while referencing the size of the defending figure in some way is a good idea we should also keep in mind the other units in this set. Very few units from AotP will come in at any larger that height 5 or 6. As for size categories, the firecats will probably come in at large, but I don't know that anything else will. It's a cool idea more generally, but I don't know that it works in the context of the set.
I think that both of the proposed powers could work with a madness flavor as well, be it drawing figures in as they succumb to insanity or controlling them to move in a different direction.

Gravity Crush is more problematic without a black hole/gravity theme, but you made a good point that within the confines of this set, it is unlikely to come into play very often. I'd still like to explore the design space, but if that's the big gimmick for the unit, I'd agree that it would be underwhelming with only this set.

I'm not convinced that we should abandon the idea entirely, though. There is still very likely to be some slight variation between 4-5 height, which will be noticeable, and the firecats and scions provide more variation. We also do have a precedent of some figures being set up for expansion with past Master Sets, working best with figures outside the set. It's not a huge stretch to make a figure that works well with a large set of figures outside the box, so long as it is still compelling without them.

Quote:
Still, we could do something like

Gravity Bind
Opponent's figures that start their turn within 3 clear sight spaces of [figure name] subtract 2 from their move value and may not use the flying or stealth flying special powers.

This alone doesn't make an interesting card, but I'll mull it over. Beyond that, my only other comment is we should try to avoid forcing the figure into the 200+ point range if it doesn't naturally end up there.
I wouldn't be opposed to Gravity Bind (like Pumpkin_King, I made a similar power preventing flying on one of my own customs), but I would want to explore gravity further if the theme revolves around a black hole alien.

As for the points range, I think it would be more accurate to say that I feel like it's warranted to aim for a "heavier" figure points wise, given the imposing stature of the sculpt and the lack of other intimidating options in the set. It absolutely shouldn't be forced, but it's worth keeping in mind that powerful figures like Charos, Jotun, or the dragons are things that players often look for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
Quote:
Gravity Crush Special Attack
Range 1. Attack Special.
When attacking with Gravity Crush Special Attack, roll X attack dice, where X is the height of the defending figure.
It was a terrible idea there and it's still terrible here. Nothing needs to be rolling 12+ dice, not even this guy. Hulk only goes to 11 for crying out loud! This is a much more palatable alternative:

Gravity Crush Special Attack
Range 1. Attack Special.
When attacking with Gravity Crush Special Attack, roll attack dice based on the defending figure's Size. Roll 2 attack dice against Small figures. Roll 4 attack dice against Medium figures. Roll 6 attack dice against Large figures. Roll 8 attack dice against Huge figures.

I also dig the idea for another power of gravity pulling figures toward him and/or affecting movement-based powers.
The Hulk also isn't canon.

Like All Your Pie mentioned, I think that the bigger problem is the lack of a lot of size variance in the Arena sets. We do have a couple of small (the smaller Eldrazi come to mind) and large figures. I'm not a fan of segmented tiers for the power, either; in my eyes, it's much more straightforward yet unique to just use the height number.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
Now I'm on desktop. Here's my custom.

Spoiler Alert!


I like Gravity Well in general, but I don't know how many other figures in the MS will have Flying/movement abilities. If we're designing this to be somewhat self-contained it may feel odd to have him neuter just one or two other figures.
For flying, the pheonixes and stone winged statue are likely candidates, along with any potential vampires that other pods settle on. It's not a ton of targets to negate, but there are a few. I'm not overly fond of the Eldrazi Ruiner having an aura like this, though. The pose feels more intimidating and aggressive to me, although I suppose that this could be represented with the statline rather than the power set.
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  #17  
Old May 13th, 2019, 11:33 AM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

According to the MtG cards, most things within the set are size 4. Only 7 units are size 5+ (the Ruiner being one of them). The Crypoliths are size 9 which jumps that to 8 "units". Everything other than the Ruiner and Crypoliths are either size 4 or 5.

But, that doesn't mean we have to use MtG's sizes. Most things that are size 4 in MtG can easily pass for size 5. The Firecats are a 4 on the card, but can easily pass as 5 (like the Deathstalkers). Ob and the Werewolf could easily be 6's, and many things can pass as 5's for their 'Scape counterparts. If we wanted to, the Phoenixes could pass as size 3 because the Phoenixes themselves aren't that big, the wings and flames ejected from their behinds are.


If an upper limit is wanted, we can set the attack cap to the Ruiner's size. His own mass is only so powerful, so anything more massive would only be subject to his mass working against them. If that happens to be 10, then nothing in canon is broken. Krug can get 2 attacks of up to 9, so why wouldn't something that'll probably be ~200 points anyways be able to hit really really hard as well. He might hit harder than Jotun, but to be fair, Jotun always has 8 attack (plus throw). The Ruiner doesn't always have his massive attack.

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Last edited by flameslayer93; May 13th, 2019 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Good catch astro ;p
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  #18  
Old May 13th, 2019, 12:27 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

The Ruiner is only size 5 in MtG? That's very surprising, considering its sheer size.

I also figured that the Eldrazi Scions would be small, but I suppose that they might be taller than they looked in the pictures. Flameslayer has a point that there is room in variation in just the figures we have already.

One thing that I don't fully agree with is the Cryptoliths, though. It would be fantastic if we could include them in a Gravity Crush Special Attack, but that opens the door to other Destructible Objects, and the Fortress Door does not have a size or height on its card. We could make a ruling specifying the height of the door or justify it by saying that there should be an errata, but I'm not too comfortable with that idea, especially since the Door is the only canon Destructible Object.

I was meaning to suggest an upper limit as well, but forgot to. If going higher than 11 dice is a thematic break for people, it's as easy as saying "up to a maximum of 10 dice" or any other number.
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  #19  
Old May 13th, 2019, 12:56 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

The Scions are probably too big to pass them as Small 3, but Medium 3 is an option (if unexplored by official scape for some reason).

I’m not sure what we should do about the DO’s. We can definately rule them out, but that could be seen as a theme break. A big monster smashing through buildings and stuff is very Godzilla-like.

Also, good catch on the tiny Ruiner Astro

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  #20  
Old May 13th, 2019, 03:10 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

I really think using the figure’s height is a fun idea, but I don’t know if it’s a good option here for this guy.
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  #21  
Old May 13th, 2019, 06:49 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post

Gravity Pull
After moving, you may choose any figure within 3 clear sight spaces of Blackhole Monster. It’s controller must place it adjacent to Blackhole Monter. Any figure moved by Gravity Pull will not receive leaving engagement attacks or falling damage.

210 points?
[Bold Added]

Lol please don't have a second water elemental. Unless it is a huge game-breaking balance issue, it seems silly to have gravity not cause falling damage.
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  #22  
Old May 13th, 2019, 07:01 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by yamissflash View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by flameslayer93 View Post

Gravity Pull
After moving, you may choose any figure within 3 clear sight spaces of Blackhole Monster. It’s controller must place it adjacent to Blackhole Monter. Any figure moved by Gravity Pull will not receive leaving engagement attacks or falling damage.

210 points?
[Bold Added]

Lol please don't have a second water elemental. Unless it is a huge game-breaking balance issue, it seems silly to have gravity not cause falling damage.
Good point! That bit is in there because I cribbed it from similar “move enemy” powers.

Glad to have ya watch @yamissflash !

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  #23  
Old May 13th, 2019, 10:08 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

Another possible version of a Gravity Crush power that does not rely on figure size/height:

Gravity Crush/Mass Implosion SA
Range Special. Attack Special.
All figures adjacent to [figure name] are affected by Gravity Crush Special Attack. Roll a number of attack dice equal to the number of figures adjacent to [figure name], up to a maximum of 5 dice. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.

Combine this with a power that allows the figure to pull units into adjacency and a decent normal attack and it could be a fun toolset.
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  #24  
Old May 13th, 2019, 10:32 PM
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Re: [AotV] UNIT NAME (Eldrazi Ruiner) - Pod 0 - Design

With some consideration, my full draft would be:

Kaladbolg (or whatever)

Life 8
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 6
Defense 3
Points: 160-180ish?

Gravity Crush/Mass Implosion SA
Range Special. Attack Special.
All figures adjacent to Kaladbolg are affected by Gravity Crush Special Attack. Roll a number of attack dice equal to the number of figures adjacent to [figure name], up to a maximum of 5 dice. Each figure rolls defense dice separately.

Vortex Glare
After Kaladbolg rolls defense dice against a normal attack from an opponent's non-adjacent figure, if that figure is small or medium and Kaladbolg did not receive any wounds from the attack, you may immediately place that figure on any empty space adjacent to Kaladbolg. Figures placed with Vortex Glare will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

Having this figure's pull power as a defensive ability is probably something only I'll be a fan of, but Vortex Glare could easily be something more standard and the core of the design would still work the same.
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