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View Poll Results: How do you interpret the word "random" in these situations
Players MUST always roll a dice or shuffle the order markers and without either player looking 7 13.21%
Owner MUST shuffle/rearrange OMs but can look before the player chooses which he/she removes 0 0%
Owner CAN shuffle/rearrange OMs and can look before the player chooses, but is not required 11 20.75%
Owner CAN rearrange OMs but MUST do while looking before the player chooses, but is not required 1 1.89%
Owner CANNOT shuffle/rearrange OMs before the player chooses. OMs must be placed strategically 23 43.40%
Depends on who you play with and mood players are in, but can be decided differently each game 11 20.75%
Voters: 53. You may not vote on this poll

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  #61  
Old April 12th, 2022, 04:50 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

I can't get into their heads either. When it comes to selecting glyphs, doing it "without looking" is the same as doing it randomly, because they'll never be placed strategically. No dice or shuffling is needed to randomize the glyphs.

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  #62  
Old April 12th, 2022, 05:12 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
I can't get into their heads either. When it comes to selecting glyphs, doing it "without looking" is the same as doing it randomly, because they'll never be placed strategically. No dice or shuffling is needed to randomize the glyphs.
Glyphs not being placed strategically by an opponent doesn't mean that they are arranged randomly. If you don't store your glyphs in a random configuration, then you can know without looking that you're grabbing, say a glyph of Ivor (maybe you keep your glyphs of Ivor together, maybe you just put Ivor back on top of the pile of glyphs after using it on another map, whatever). It seems clear to me that the intent is that if you could know what glyph you're grabbing without looking, then you should do something to make that not the case, and the rules don't particularly care what.

~KoS, noting that this distinction could still confer a significant competitive advantage if you're selecting glyphs after selecting armies for whatever reason.
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  #63  
Old April 12th, 2022, 05:26 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Sounds like your vote is for 6, then?

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  #64  
Old April 12th, 2022, 05:41 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Sounds like your vote is for 6, then?
My vote is still for #3, although I don't necessarily see #3 and #6 as mutually exclusive. While I agree it's possible that the designers intended #5, it's not the most natural reading of the power to me. Thus, I'd say that the letter of the rules is #1, and the most practical way to play is #3--if the player having the OM removed believes that they've already randomized the placement of their OMs, so whichever one the opponent picks will be random, the opponent can just pick one. Otherwise, the player having the OM removed should have the chance to shuffle them so that the selection will be random, or the player selecting should roll a d20, so that the selection will be random. In practice, this means that how strictly the rules are followed will depend on who's playing and their mood, so #6 is also "correct", just less informative.

~KoS, noting that #6 also applies to plenty of other rules--e.g. my mood and the seriousness of the game is going to affect how much I care about whether my opponent really has LoS for his attack.
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  #65  
Old April 12th, 2022, 05:47 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

The letter of the rules is absolutely not #1, even by your own analysis. That implies there's only two ways to randomize, and you've argued that the game expects you to implement your own way of doing so. I use Magic Eight Balls myself.

The most practical way to play is definitely #5.

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  #66  
Old April 12th, 2022, 06:01 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
The letter of the rules is absolutely not #1, even by your own analysis. That implies there's only two ways to randomize, and you've argued that the game expects you to implement your own way of doing so. I use Magic Eight Balls myself.

The most practical way to play is definitely #5.
Alright, to be more pedantic I'd say that the letter of the rules is closest to #1, with the understanding that any other reasonable method of randomness would also be acceptable. You can maybe say that #5 is the simplest/easiest, but I don't think that makes it the most practical. In my mind it's pretty clearly going against what the card says to do, and it's going to lead to arguments like the one that spawned this thread. Whereas I think reasonable people wouldn't get upset with their opponent shuffling their OMs, even if they didn't understand it as necessary for randomness.

~KoS, making do with the available poll options
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  #67  
Old April 12th, 2022, 06:08 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

44% of people polled don't think you should be able to shuffle, so there's a good chance some reasonable people would get upset.

Also, who's the arbiter of what's a reasonable method for randomness? Just feels like a rabbit hole best not trod down. But it wouldn't be the first time that vague Hasbro language led to an interpretive mess.

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  #68  
Old April 12th, 2022, 06:58 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

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Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
44% of people polled don't think you should be able to shuffle, so there's a good chance some reasonable people would get upset.

Also, who's the arbiter of what's a reasonable method for randomness? Just feels like a rabbit hole best not trod down. But it wouldn't be the first time that vague Hasbro language led to an interpretive mess.
My personal impression is that I'd be much more upset if I assumed that I could shuffle my OMs and was told by the TD I couldn't than if I was assumed I could strategically pick an OM and was told by the TD that my opponent gets to shuffle.

In the first case, I could've easily placed my OMs differently at the start of the round if I knew how this tournament was playing and prevented potentially losing a key OM due to an obscure unofficial ruling.

In the second case, I don't get a strategic advantage I thought I would have had, but there was nothing I could have done differently to give myself that advantage, and I wouldn't have had it to begin with if my opponent had randomized their OMs at the start of the round (something I likely don't know for sure if they did), so I don't have the same regret and don't lose quite as much.

I don't know of any specific cases of this question causing an issue in games besides Brewster's question that spawned this thread, though, so I can't really back up my intuition here with data.

As far as the arbiter of randomness, I think that again that'd just be up to the TD, or the players reaching a consensus, like is already the case for ambiguous to apply rules like LoS. I think that pretty much anyone playing Heroscape would agree that a die is a source of randomness, so I rather doubt there would be a situation where the players couldn't find any common ground.

~KoS, noting that a player trying to use a sketchy source of randomness could equally well try to use a sketchy method of rolling their attack dice or moving their figures, things the game also doesn't explicitly tell you how to do.
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  #69  
Old April 12th, 2022, 07:49 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

I think #6 is kind of unavoidably the answer. I guess I've always gone with #5 in practice without really thinking about it.

Also, it looks like Fyorlag's card has the word "random" on it, which clarifies it to me. If every removal power has the word "random" on it that makes it more compelling to be answer #5, but if there was an actual discrepancy that would make me think that cards with the word "random" would work like answer #1 and without it would be #5.

#3 seems fine too, but I like the comparison to not adjusting your figures on an opponent's turn.


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  #70  
Old April 13th, 2022, 08:49 AM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Not to bring this thread back but I have chosen #1 on the case of always using the same method to determine randomness to ensure the methodology is consistently random. Whether OM's are shuffled for the power then brought back to the order of the player's chosing is a moot point.

I feel the strategic placement of OM's are for attempting to trick the opponent from guessing your next move and is separate from powers like this so I went with #1 where you may deviate from your OM placement by moving them around for the random power or you may not but a random means of choosing must be used instead of simply picking which one you may think is their next available OM.

I don't necessarily believe each choice is uniquely separate but I believe in the stance #1 takes where it is the same each time and is as random as we can provide. #6 is always the case in events that do not matter and where rules can be bent like showing a friend how to play so although that is the answer when rules are not hard and fast the question is asking a ruling question so for this reason I feel #6 cannot be the case in this question.

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  #71  
Old April 13th, 2022, 12:51 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Rolling a die isn't always as random as you'd think. And I get a 1d2 could be a coin toss which can be even less random. But I understand it can be considered an acceptable solution.

Moving the markers around just makes no real sense to me. It provides the chance to accidentally bump one over so the other player can see the number or x and then a slight of hand game needs to be played...why bother. And if you normally stack numbers in a row on your card...stop doing that. It's the same as placing your marks down 1,2,3,X at the beginning of the round. The other player will catch on to that type of rigorous subterfuge and figure out your strategies.

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  #72  
Old April 13th, 2022, 03:09 PM
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Re: Remove one unrevealed Order Marker at random?

Though I wonder, does anyone think there would be a point cost difference between 1 and 5? I can't say that I believe there would be.

Of course for spiders and mindflayers only one unit can loose om's so jiggling the oms is symbolic at best. If you are playing against these units and are lining up the oms the same way you deserve what you get.

Oreld is a tricky wicket since it is possible to infer the location of OM depending on units, and thus would not be choosing at random.


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