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  #109  
Old January 2nd, 2021, 06:53 PM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 Round 2 by 12/26/20

Probably starting closer to 7:30 EST.

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  #110  
Old January 2nd, 2021, 09:44 PM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

Congratulations Boromir. I will only have to go a couple of miles to drop off the trophy!

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  #111  
Old January 2nd, 2021, 10:27 PM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

Got the win in a tight game against HS2010. Kudos to Kirk for bringing a much more imaginative build than I did and almost winning it all! Halfway through the game I thought I had no shot and was also having internet issues which probably led to me playing sloppier than I should have.

Kirk opened with MW while I slow rolled Knights to the top of the screen. I was terrified of what his MW could do with Ulnivia so I made it a priority to take it away even if I had to sacrifice a couple knights to keep it away. I got a lucky 5 symbol dispatch to allow me to snag it first. He was able to pick off a few knights and I brought Raelin up on my OM 3. He was able to kill the knight on the glyph on his OM 3 and get the init switch to put a fast 3 wounds on Raelin. I fought back and took out a couple MW and he retreated and cloned. I pushed a couple knights out of Raelin aura to bring him down to 1 MW. He brought his Raelin up to bottom of the map and I rushed Gilbert and 3/4 knights over to try to take her out quickly. Unfortunately for me he had some sort of hybrid/mutant Raelin that rolled shields like you’ve never seen. Even with boosted attacks from Gilbert it would take me almost 2 rounds to take her down. In the meantime Mimring was burning things and a worrying amount of Arrow Grut attacks were getting through. Running out of knights I pushed Gilbert into his SZ to try to tie down and wound Mimring but his attacks did nothing for several turns. By the time his Raelin and my Gilbert were dead, I had no wounds on Mimring and maybe 7 knights left. One Knight I pushed into his SZ and was able to get 2 wounds on the Dragon before falling. With 4-5 Knights left I was able to kill a few AGs and put a Knight on Ulnivia, and then switched all my OMs onto MW. MWs in Raelin aura started chewing through AGs, and then after an aggressive Mimring placement they took out the dragon as well. At this point I hadn’t lost a MW yet, and HS still had 9ish AGs. HS was able to sneak a couple in to take down Raelin, and then a couple MWs shortly thereafter. With 2 MWs left against 3 AGs I decided to keep attacking rather than try to clone. He took out another MW and I got him down to 1 AG, on his OM 3 his last grut whiffed his 1die, and my MW hopped on Wannok for the win. I won with 1 MW and 3 knights left. GG!

Definitely wasn’t super happy with how I played it, but maybe it’s just because the early risks I took didn’t work out at all. At one point Kirk was rolling well over 50% shields, he ended the game right at 50% while I was under 30%. I’m excited to watch @BiggaBullfrog break it down and show me what I could have done better.



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Originally Posted by kevindola View Post
Congratulations Boromir. I will only have to go a couple of miles to drop off the trophy!

Spoiler Alert!
I think the Cathar build would’ve been great too, but there was definitely times where the extra speed from Dispatch was huge for me.

I played this build because of the recent discussion from the COV threads where it was being debated whether or not Raelin actually made Knight builds worse. There were definitely times where I felt like her aura was restrictive, but in other matchups like Blast/Glads her and the MW were huge.

MW and Raelin OP? I think both finals armies in both cheese events have had both.

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  #112  
Old January 2nd, 2021, 10:35 PM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

GG Boromir! A really good game! Hopefully everyone sees the AGs and Mimring as yet another potent Dragon build moving forward. I’ll write more about why I picked this build later but for now I’ll say I’m happy to take 2nd place in a close game.

Statistically I’ll note quickly that your defense stats are skewed by rolling Dispatch. Regardless my 50% was the only thing that kept my bad Raelin in the game for so long.

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  #113  
Old January 2nd, 2021, 10:42 PM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

Quote:
Originally Posted by heroscaper2010 View Post
GG Boromir! A really good game! Hopefully everyone sees the AGs and Mimring as yet another potent Dragon build moving forward. Iíll write more about why I picked this build later but for now Iíll say Iím happy to take 2nd place in a close game.

Statistically Iíll note quickly that your defense stats are skewed by rolling Dispatch. Regardless my 50% was the only thing that kept my bad Raelin in the game for so long.
Thatís a great point, I didnít think about that. Makes it almost impossible to tell how I was actually rolling without going back and counting. Definitely felt poor at least in the early game, but the MW were rolling good def for a bit at the end.

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  #114  
Old January 2nd, 2021, 11:55 PM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

When I last played knights I used to use a separate login to roll dispatch so I could still see my stats.

Congrats Boromir! I didn't get a chance to watch the finals but I thought you played extremely well in the other games.

I personally think Raelin works reasonably well with knights, although an extra squad of knights is often better. However if you have a ranged component to your army, as you did here, then Raelin supports that really well, which can justify her use.

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Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
MW and Raelin OP? I think both finals armies in both cheese events have had both.
I mean... yeah? MW and Isamu are the only "A" ranked figures I'd consider for A+. MW are both a win condition (many fairly strong army remnants can't beat MW in cleanup) and a very cheap option for ranged attacks. That combination is quite potent.

---

Of course a shout-out to heroscaper2010 for his build is probably in order. As I said on the discord I think there's a real hidden insight to that build. It's basically ignoring the whole orthodoxy of Arrow Gruts where you use swogs and build a base and try to turn them into a strong ranged squad that stays still.

Instead it's saying, essentially "oh, Quahon is good with 2/2 spiders? Well I can get 2 attack a lot with arrow gruts, and they're easier to keep in Raelin's aura. Let me just play Mimring and Arrow Gruts and treat the AGs like ranged spiders."

And you know... that kinda works. I think it would have worked even better at a lower point total.

---

It's a mistake to read too much about the meta into one event result, of course. For sure we had some pretty crazy results along the way in this event. The bracket predictors got shellacked quite hard. But one thing we can definitely say is that even at the very top, Heroscape is far from a solved meta, and has plenty of diversity.

I'm excited to see how things evolve the next time we run one of these. Thanks to everyone who participated; it was fun both to be a part and to spectate.
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  #115  
Old January 3rd, 2021, 12:28 AM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Of course a shout-out to heroscaper2010 for his build is probably in order. As I said on the discord I think there's a real hidden insight to that build. It's basically ignoring the whole orthodoxy of Arrow Gruts where you use swogs and build a base and try to turn them into a strong ranged squad that stays still.

Instead it's saying, essentially "oh, Quahon is good with 2/2 spiders? Well I can get 2 attack a lot with arrow gruts, and they're easier to keep in Raelin's aura. Let me just play Mimring and Arrow Gruts and treat the AGs like ranged spiders."

And you know... that kinda works. I think it would have worked even better at a lower point total.
This was basically my thought process. And yes, at a lower point total around 480-500 I can run 5x AGs, Mimring, Raelin, MWs, w/ or w/o Marcu and not have to drop an AG as I did here. That still stays a squad ahead of Spiders x4, Quahon, Raelin, MWs, w/ or w/o Marcu. Even as you go to lower totals, each of those armies lose squads correspondingly.

Swogs are awful, if anyone wants my honest opinion, and this event was my way of finally testing whether the AG Dragon build could be competitive. With Swogs, even Raelin backed, 5 defense whiffs a lot leaving them susceptible to range (I took advantage of this against vegie during OnlineCon with MRTs). 1-life doesn't help obviously. IMO they would be better served as Uncommons with 3-life but that road is long gone unfortunately. Nevertheless hard to successfully setup on most maps.

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  #116  
Old January 4th, 2021, 02:39 AM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by boromir96 View Post
MW and Raelin OP? I think both finals armies in both cheese events have had both.
I mean... yeah? MW and Isamu are the only "A" ranked figures I'd consider for A+. MW are both a win condition (many fairly strong army remnants can't beat MW in cleanup) and a very cheap option for ranged attacks. That combination is quite potent.
.
I’ve been saying for a while I think those two are in the A+ group. MW are good with virtually every army and on any map and in any matchup, and they can just win the endgame almost automatically more often than people think. I think they’re definitely up with the other three. As far as Isamu goes I really just view him as a second chance button that can cheat you out games, and when he doesn’t work, well you would’ve lost anyway. (Also can be played outside of the very endgame if you’re using Ornak). Personally I think he’s A+, with the amount of points you have a good shot of killing with him, which you’re practically getting for free. I’m ok with Isamu as an A, filler units are very hard to rate, so I kind of understand people’s reasoning in that regard. But the ratio of points he usually kills to his cost, I think that’s better than anyone else’s. And that’s hard to ignore. I guess people don’t want him in the tier of ‘best figure in the game’ since he’s just a 10pt. filler, and I admit that I subconsciously also exclude him from that conversation......but you could make a case for Isamu.

(I also think Hydra is at the bottom of the A+’s, but that’s a topic for another day )

Sorry to sidetrack...congrats borimir, and HS2010 for 2nd
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  #117  
Old January 4th, 2021, 12:33 PM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

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Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
As far as Isamu goes I really just view him as a second chance button that can cheat you out games, and when he doesnít work, well you wouldíve lost anyway. (Also can be played outside of the very endgame if youíre using Ornak). Personally I think heís A+, with the amount of points you have a good shot of killing with him, which youíre practically getting for free. Iím ok with Isamu as an A, filler units are very hard to rate, so I kind of understand peopleís reasoning in that regard. But the ratio of points he usually kills to his cost, I think thatís better than anyone elseís. And thatís hard to ignore. I guess people donít want him in the tier of Ďbest figure in the gameí since heís just a 10pt. filler, and I admit that I subconsciously also exclude him from that conversation......but you could make a case for Isamu.
Yeah that's more or less my argument. Isamu is the most underpriced figure in the game, we just don't notice it because a figure that's worth ~5 times its value on average is less obvious when it's only a 10 point figure.

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I also think Hydra is at the bottom of the A+ís, but thatís a topic for another day
Well it's another day now (and I think it's on-topic in this thread, at this point).

Hydras didn't have a great showing in this event. The Hydra did extremely well for me against mtl1998's buccaneers, but was more or less dead weight in my loss to the 4th Mass. The Hydra is really really strong, but it has a decent number of mediocre matchups. That alone keeps it out of A+, IMO.
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  #118  
Old January 6th, 2021, 06:57 PM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

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Hydras didn't have a great showing in this event. The Hydra did extremely well for me against mtl1998's buccaneers, but was more or less dead weight in my loss to the 4th Mass. The Hydra is really really strong, but it has a decent number of mediocre matchups. That alone keeps it out of A+, IMO.
In our game, if the Hydra blanked (or even rolled 1 or 2 shields out of 8) one time out of 6 or 7 attacks, the Hydra would've had another mediocre matchup.

That being said, the Hydra rolled me and my buccs after defending one turn of attacks. Ggs

Last edited by dok; January 6th, 2021 at 10:43 PM.
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  #119  
Old January 7th, 2021, 02:21 AM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleon View Post
As far as Isamu goes I really just view him as a second chance button that can cheat you out games, and when he doesn’t work, well you would’ve lost anyway. (Also can be played outside of the very endgame if you’re using Ornak). Personally I think he’s A+, with the amount of points you have a good shot of killing with him, which you’re practically getting for free. I’m ok with Isamu as an A, filler units are very hard to rate, so I kind of understand people’s reasoning in that regard. But the ratio of points he usually kills to his cost, I think that’s better than anyone else’s. And that’s hard to ignore. I guess people don’t want him in the tier of ‘best figure in the game’ since he’s just a 10pt. filler, and I admit that I subconsciously also exclude him from that conversation......but you could make a case for Isamu.
Yeah that's more or less my argument. Isamu is the most underpriced figure in the game, we just don't notice it because a figure that's worth ~5 times its value on average is less obvious when it's only a 10 point figure.

Quote:
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I also think Hydra is at the bottom of the A+’s, but that’s a topic for another day
Well it's another day now (and I think it's on-topic in this thread, at this point).

Hydras didn't have a great showing in this event. The Hydra did extremely well for me against mtl1998's buccaneers, but was more or less dead weight in my loss to the 4th Mass. The Hydra is really really strong, but it has a decent number of mediocre matchups. That alone keeps it out of A+, IMO.
In the VC meta I think I would place Hydra at a high A (gotta update my rankings). With the Cathar present I think melee definitely isn’t as likeable (although boromir did just win this with knights lol) or at least a lot of the classic builds, and Hydras want melee. Hydras aren’t that great into Cathar builds either. well, not as great, I think it’s ok. There’s also several VC big-hero slayers that are still concerning for the hydra even though it’s only 120pt. So I think in the top of the A’s for VC world.

For classic scape though I do think it’s teetering right between A and A+ (like Marcu imo), and I tend to give it the A+. I think especially nowadays with how much melee is being played, the hydra is even more likeable. Other than 4th and 10th and Stingers, I don’t really mind it into anything else. And that’s why it pairs so well with phantom knights, they take care of the WTF’s. My take on it is yes, it can take early wounds and not be nearly as strong, but it’s only 120pt. and can kill a ridiculous amount of points, I think that risk/reward is too good. The points aren’t a detrimental investment if it get hit early (you can also play multiple ). And it’s still good with 2 wounds on it, just not as crazy. Even decent with 3 wounds in the endgame, Reach is nasty.

But truthfully I’d have it in its own tier with Marcu between the A’s and A+’s if I could so I’m fine with A, I just think it’s towards the top if it’s in there.

Edit: Stingers are good against it and not bad into PK’s, but who the hell plays Stingers outside of the Knights/Chainfighter matchup?
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  #120  
Old January 7th, 2021, 11:42 AM
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Re: Special Event: Bring the VCheese #2 CONGRATS BOROMIR96

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Edit: Stingers are good against it and not bad into PKís, but who the hell plays Stingers outside of the Knights/Chainfighter matchup?
Great question. I'm slowly getting into your head!!

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