Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Custom HeroScape Creations > Custom Units & Army Cards
Custom Units & Army Cards Fan-created HS army cards for units, glyphs, and equipment

Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #3229  
Old March 9th, 2019, 11:40 AM
SinChan SinChan is offline
 
Join Date: July 29, 2016
Location: USA - MN - Minneapolis
Posts: 67
SinChan is surprisingly tart
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

@BiggaBullfrog That isn't actually such a bad idea for information gathering. Though if I do edit the ability to allow you to move one of your order markers, it may need to remain being instead of attacking for the sake of balance, that's not a bad suggestion though.

@Pumpkin_King I do partially agree, although the figure is very clearly holding a shotgun, so it's an easy addition in my mind that I dont personally think detracts from the unit at all.
Reply With Quote
  #3230  
Old March 9th, 2019, 11:46 AM
Pumpkin_King's Avatar
Pumpkin_King Pumpkin_King is offline
A Happy Extradimensional Horror
 
Join Date: August 4, 2006
Location: Canada-AB-Calgary
Posts: 8,058
Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death! Pumpkin_King is hot lava death!
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Oh no, doesn’t detract at all! I was just saying personally. I’m not a judge, so I’m in zero position to say anything substantial.
Reply With Quote
  #3231  
Old March 9th, 2019, 04:50 PM
Leaf_It's Avatar
Leaf_It Leaf_It is offline
Night of the Living Plastic
 
Join Date: February 19, 2008
Location: USA - Utah
Posts: 2,226
Images: 5
Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinChan View Post
@BiggaBullfrog That isn't actually such a bad idea for information gathering. Though if I do edit the ability to allow you to move one of your order markers, it may need to remain being instead of attacking for the sake of balance, that's not a bad suggestion though.
Something to remember, is that nothing is imbalanced, no matter how good it is, because it's all a matter of pricing. The more powerful it is, the higher the price. Now you may want the price to be within a certain range, and that could cause the price to be too high, and thus the powers would need to be rebalanced. Moving order markers is good, but I don't think it's quite as powerful as you might be thinking. Take a look at Rygarn from the C3V who can already do this. He has more life, and better stats all around, an Isamu-like ignore damage ability, he's only 90 points, and to top it off, his ability doesn't even require you to place any order markers on his card to be able to move order markers. Just some food for thought.
Reply With Quote
  #3232  
Old March 10th, 2019, 01:39 PM
Astroking112's Avatar
Astroking112 Astroking112 is offline
 
Join Date: March 15, 2011
Location: USA - VA - Arlington
Posts: 3,302
Images: 41
Blog Entries: 59
Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun Astroking112 is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
To the extent of my knowledge, SoV judges mostly playtest in 1v1 games with 400-600 points on tournament maps. That's very likely the environment that he'd be tested in (I personally still like running units in less serious games at least a couple of times as well to ensure that they're still fun).
Not necessarily. In fact, not even the majority of the time in many cases. It depends on the unit, of course, because we're wanting to test what that unit is designed to do, and that's not necessarily double-blind tourney play. I've done a lot of dungeon crawl testing, some Heat of Battle, and a surprising amount of free-for-all's (a large part of my testing with Maltis Tez was free-for-all's; I'd recommend trying her out in one sometime). I also do a lot of draft tests (the OG of Heroscape) and always at least a couple (more if I can) casual, just for fun games with a friend to make sure that the unit is, indeed, fun. I mean, it's a game. (In fact, I see this detective being really fun in multiplayer games where you can look at OM's and tell the other player(s) what's on the card to get them to help you -- let the table politics ensue!)

I guess I can't speak specifically for the other judges, other than Scytale was sure to remind me when I joined that, while testing is largely up to me, blind-draft tournament play isn't the only format to look at. (I feel like it's over popularized, personally, where most people know about it and think it's the main deal even though in their personal games it's not their main thing to turn to (and I see this in customs and maps).) I do feel like I've seen most of them post about testing different kinds of ways to play.
That's good to hear. In my monthly events, I would often run weirder formats or lean pretty heavily into scenarios to keep things fresh, even when taking a testing unit sometimes. I think that running units in a wide variety of formats like that really helps to get a better idea of how a unit fits into the game as a whole, which isn't emphasized as much when most of the testing is done in the normal tournament structure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SinChan View Post
@BiggaBullfrog That isn't actually such a bad idea for information gathering. Though if I do edit the ability to allow you to move one of your order markers, it may need to remain being instead of attacking for the sake of balance, that's not a bad suggestion though.

@Pumpkin_King I do partially agree, although the figure is very clearly holding a shotgun, so it's an easy addition in my mind that I dont personally think detracts from the unit at all.
While I would agree that explosive Special Attacks have been done pretty often before, the shotgun in the sculpt's hand makes a pretty good case for him having that ability. Much like James Murphy is essentially Johnny with a new secondary ability, I think that a detective with a shotgun can work and be suitably unique.

To that end, I agree with the sentiment of playing more on the Information Gathering aspect of the design. That's the highlight in my opinion, and I think that it's worthy of being the focus. I don't like the idea of changing it to be an instead-of-attacking power unless it has a much more active component, though, since I fear that otherwise you'd be dealing with a Sudema or Deadeye Dan type of figure with a 50%+ chance of being useless that turn.

I just noticed that the figure has 7 range and 2 attack like some of the cowboys, but I'm a little confused as to why. Johnny and James are holding pistols as well as their shotguns, so I always took it as a sign that they were using those for their normal attacks and the shotguns for their Special Attacks. It looks like the sculpt might have another holstered gun, but if not then it would feel weird to say that the shotgun is also capable of a long range attack.
Reply With Quote
  #3233  
Old March 10th, 2019, 03:33 PM
Kinseth's Avatar
Kinseth Kinseth is offline
3-Time Online HS Champion & Diplomacy Winner of Land Wars in Asia
 
Join Date: May 16, 2007
Location: On my Throne.
Posts: 8,165
Images: 33
Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death! Kinseth is hot lava death!
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I wouldnt compare something to Rygarn. He is clearly underpriced. Thats like comparing a figure to Raelin...

Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program!

Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites.
Reply With Quote
  #3234  
Old March 10th, 2019, 04:28 PM
Leaf_It's Avatar
Leaf_It Leaf_It is offline
Night of the Living Plastic
 
Join Date: February 19, 2008
Location: USA - Utah
Posts: 2,226
Images: 5
Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
I wouldnt compare something to Rygarn. He is clearly underpriced. Thats like comparing a figure to Raelin...
Okay fair point, but he does break the barrier that might have been in place regarding a power that moves order markers.
Reply With Quote
  #3235  
Old March 10th, 2019, 04:58 PM
The Dewk's Avatar
The Dewk The Dewk is offline
 
Join Date: November 19, 2016
Location: USA - UT - Salt Lake City
Posts: 484
Images: 28
The Dewk rolls all skulls baby! The Dewk rolls all skulls baby! The Dewk rolls all skulls baby! The Dewk rolls all skulls baby!
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinseth View Post
I wouldnt compare something to Rygarn. He is clearly underpriced. Thats like comparing a figure to Raelin...
Rygarn makes 95% of armies better just by tossing him in willy-nilly?
Reply With Quote
  #3236  
Old March 10th, 2019, 05:41 PM
SinChan SinChan is offline
 
Join Date: July 29, 2016
Location: USA - MN - Minneapolis
Posts: 67
SinChan is surprisingly tart
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
I just noticed that the figure has 7 range and 2 attack like some of the cowboys, but I'm a little confused as to why. Johnny and James are holding pistols as well as their shotguns, so I always took it as a sign that they were using those for their normal attacks and the shotguns for their Special Attacks. It looks like the sculpt might have another holstered gun, but if not then it would feel weird to say that the shotgun is also capable of a long range attack.
The idea there is that he would be carrying a handgun, but it would be concealed. Since I'm basing him more or less off of a real world detective, and they usually have some kind of firearm on them on the job. Although a mini not having a pistol on it's sculpt but having one in its stats is nothing new for Heroscape. (SoTM Sgt. Drake has pistol fire special attack, but no obvious pistol on his sculpt.)
Reply With Quote
  #3237  
Old March 11th, 2019, 10:54 AM
Scytale's Avatar
Scytale Scytale is offline
Thanksgiving Custom Contest Champion
 
Join Date: August 25, 2006
Location: USA - MN - Rochester
Posts: 12,059
Images: 485
Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth Scytale is a man of the cloth
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Information Gathering is useless as-is. Even if it was automatic it would be useless. Giving up a round of attacks or even just a round of positioning with anything else is not worth the intel. Players may use it at first for its uniqueness, but serious players will always choose to make an attack instead.

If it remained 30% chance and you made it in addition to the attack, then it starts to get interesting, but is still flawed. He's pretty much just Johnny with an extra (free) trick, which is neat, but just like Johnny he won't be good enough to warrant order markers in early or mid game (except in certain circumstances), and Information Gathering will not be as useful in late game. Information Gathering, even as a bonus to his normal turn, just isn't enough to make me want to give the very important first order marker to a subpar unit, which is the only time Information Gathering is effective in its current form.

Make it a start-of-round power, and it may be worth positioning him close enough, though doing so will still cost early game board position, which hurts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
To the extent of my knowledge, SoV judges mostly playtest in 1v1 games with 400-600 points on tournament maps. That's very likely the environment that he'd be tested in (I personally still like running units in less serious games at least a couple of times as well to ensure that they're still fun).
~500pt 1v1 is an important data point, but it's only one data point. Dungeon crawls, free-for-alls, team games, Heat of Battle, heroes only, etc. We test all sorts of things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Something to remember, is that nothing is imbalanced, no matter how good it is, because it's all a matter of pricing.
I strongly disagree with that. A bad power can rarely be made good by being cheap. Even if a power can be balanced cost-wise, that doesn't mean it's fun or belongs in the game.
Reply With Quote
  #3238  
Old March 11th, 2019, 01:45 PM
SinChan SinChan is offline
 
Join Date: July 29, 2016
Location: USA - MN - Minneapolis
Posts: 67
SinChan is surprisingly tart
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

After playing a couple of quick games yesterday, keeping an eye on the unit and how it performed. I am agreeing with a lot of what's been said here. After switching info gathering to be after moving before attacking, and having it allow you to move one of your markers, the ability was getting a bit more use in each game. That said it still was only used 2 to 4 times in the entire game. I'm planning on running him a little bit more tonight, but now I'm thinking that he will float around the 65-70 point ballpark with the changes I've made. Especially so since I found he didn't really nicely fit into any of the existing synergy trees. (To the extent of my knowledge)

I appreciate the input from you guys by the way, it's been very helpful.
Reply With Quote
  #3239  
Old March 12th, 2019, 12:01 AM
Leaf_It's Avatar
Leaf_It Leaf_It is offline
Night of the Living Plastic
 
Join Date: February 19, 2008
Location: USA - Utah
Posts: 2,226
Images: 5
Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun Leaf_It is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
Something to remember, is that nothing is imbalanced, no matter how good it is, because it's all a matter of pricing.
I strongly disagree with that. A bad power can rarely be made good by being cheap. Even if a power can be balanced cost-wise, that doesn't mean it's fun or belongs in the game.
I didn't intend for this to mean that a boring or useless power should be used, it just means that so long as the price reflects the value a design will have during a game, that it won't be imbalanced. If a power is boring, or useless, then it probably should be reworked, or it shouldn't be on the design, but that doesn't mean that it is imbalanced. My original statement was in response to SinChan's worry that moving order markers might be too powerful. I just wanted to say that it won't be imbalanced, or too powerful so long as the price reflects the value. Maybe my wording wasn't the best, but I stand by my intended meaning.
Reply With Quote
  #3240  
Old March 12th, 2019, 11:20 AM
Dad_Scaper's Avatar
Dad_Scaper Dad_Scaper is offline. Isn't that smurfy?
Enjoy the Sausage
 
Join Date: January 3, 2007
Location: MD - Baltimore
Posts: 27,984
Images: 4
Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth Dad_Scaper is a man of the cloth
Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I think you two might be using "balance" differently. As I understand Leaf It's position, it is that "balance" relates by definition only to cost. I don't use it that way, but I think that is what is being lost in the translation.

The designs of the Age of Annihilation, and their ACES compatibility with VC
C3V "Easily the best quality classic customs I have ever seen."
= =
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Custom HeroScape Creations > Custom Units & Army Cards
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
C3G Dredd'verse workshop Tornado C3G Legacy 1080 July 19th, 2023 11:14 AM
MiniatureGeek's Custom Workshop #1 Miniature Geek Other Customization & HS Additions 14 August 20th, 2009 10:37 PM
Sci Fi Terrain by Games Workshop RichardD Custom Terrain & Obstacles 12 August 4th, 2009 02:38 PM
Bad_Calvin's Workshop - update 4-7 bad_calvin Custom Terrain & Obstacles 54 June 5th, 2009 09:09 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:32 AM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2024 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.