Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > HeroScape General Discussion
HeroScape General Discussion General discussions of packaging, terrain, components, etc. If it doesn't fit in any other official category, put it here.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #37  
Old January 14th, 2013, 04:25 AM
Kroc's Avatar
Kroc Kroc is offline
Did you know that 5 exclamation points is a sign of insanity?
 
Join Date: July 27, 2007
Location: Ankara, Turkey
Posts: 1,747
Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Personally, I've come to conclude that the reason that Heroscape failed is that Hasbro was willing to let it fail.

They had this awesome new terrain idea, extremely experienced and talented game designers and they said "let's try to hit a home run."

What do I mean? They were looking for bang or bust. So they priced it and sold it to a mass market, but it failed as a mass market product. They targeted 10 year old boys because they knew that if it was going to succeed as a mass market game it would be because of players like that. We're out there, and we have lots of money, but we'll never be a mass market.

What to do then? Well we'll hand it off to WOTC, they're our niche marketer. Unfortunately they handed it off with prices that could only work in the mass market, and no matter how much WOTC tried they couldn't make a profit at those prices. Back when the hand-off occurred there were countless posts asking "are they going to raise prices." The answer from WOTC was always NO, but it should have been yes if the game was going to survive.



As far as a video game, yea that would have helped but their design was explicitly physical. If the video game (like online heroscape) took off who would buy the terrain?



And a cartoon? Hasbro took a radical chance trying to make this into a mass market game. Now you want them to go to the further expense of having a cartoon? EVERY new product that comes out could do better because of a cartoon, what makes Heroscape special? The fact that its unique and different and cool? Then (from Hasbro's point of view) it should be able to fly on its own.

In general the formula is success=cartoon, not the other way around. There is a model where cartoon leads to success but this model is for toys like Pokemon/Bakugan. Toys that only need that "wow" factor. I mean, who would buy a Bakugan if it wasn't cool? It's just a ball that folds out. That toy needs a cartoon to create the wow. And the crowd that is going to be sucked in by those cartoons is the 5-8 year old boy. Heroscape is too complex for those kids.

By the time you are 10 (the target audience) cartoons are something you're "getting over." Not something you're obsessed about and always on the look out for a new one. In about three years (the core age group of the target audience) other things (girls) become important, those kids who are still obsessed with cartoons are geeks--and geeks (uhh, that's us) are NOT a mass market.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old January 14th, 2013, 07:00 AM
chas's Avatar
chas chas is offline
 
Join Date: June 23, 2008
Location: USA- NY - New York City
Posts: 5,049
Blog Entries: 64
chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death! chas is hot lava death!
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Many of these points, which are very good, proceed from a false premise, one from the hobby gaming model rather than standard mass market practice.

There is a planned obsolescence factor built into a mass market strategy. Sadly, this affects American business to a very large extent. Years ago, when I was introduced to the retail world, I learned that even huge anchor stores at new shopping malls were expected to do well for a few years, then it was expected that their profit would tail off, due to the later location of yet more shopping malls, and the huge company (still quite successful; they sponsor a Thanksgiving Day parade here in NYC--you may have heard of them) would just close the store and move on to repeat the pattern at another location; etc., etc., and etc.!

Hasbro, which markets a million versions of their most successful products like Monopoly and Risk over and over again, with no game expansion strategy, is certainly not interested in how much their customers enjoy a particular design over the years, but only how much sales they can generate by constantly expanding their market until it peaks, and then they pull out--intentionally--after which they design another clone of the same design to do it again. That's the plan, Stan!

Oh no--they killed Kenny...

Last edited by chas; January 14th, 2013 at 07:13 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old January 15th, 2013, 02:21 AM
Kroc's Avatar
Kroc Kroc is offline
Did you know that 5 exclamation points is a sign of insanity?
 
Join Date: July 27, 2007
Location: Ankara, Turkey
Posts: 1,747
Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla Kroc is inducted into the Halls of Valhalla
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

This would fit very well into what actually happened. As far as we could all see Heroscape was selling well, no problem with that. But Hasbro still handed it off to its "hobby game" producer, who then killed it.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old January 17th, 2013, 12:28 AM
Porkachu Porkachu is offline
 
Join Date: July 11, 2012
Location: USA-NJ-New Brunswick
Posts: 77
Porkachu is surprisingly tart
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibechief View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porkachu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ibechief View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porkachu View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Scaper94 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bloody Bogle View Post
A Heroscape-themed Real Time Strategy game along the line of Age of Empires or Warcraft would have been the greatest thing ever.
Or an RPG-type game, where you decide which General you want to follow. Then you could fight in battles and such, playing anything from a 10th Reg to a Venoc. I think that'd be really fun.
This would solve the WoW problem brilliantly; the lines are drawn too clearly, you're either Horde or Alliance, there's no middle ground (well there is now, but I don't wanna be a panda).

But in scape, you can join one of SEVEN different factions. This would've been indescribably epic.
But it is not like it has never been done before. There are loads of past RTS games that include multiple factions.
Granted, but none with the insane flexibility that a scape MMO (or whatever) would offer. Even without multiple factions, the sheer number of available races and classes are saliva-inducing.
This makes a game terribly poor though when considering cost effectiveness of designing. It is far simpler to make more of one race than to completely redesign a new race with multiple units.
Actually, thinking about it, I completely agree with this.
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old January 17th, 2013, 01:27 AM
greygnarl's Avatar
greygnarl greygnarl is offline
No good deed goes unpunished
 
Join Date: November 24, 2012
Location: USA - IL - Des Plaines
Posts: 3,503
greygnarl wears ripped pants of awesomeness greygnarl wears ripped pants of awesomeness greygnarl wears ripped pants of awesomeness greygnarl wears ripped pants of awesomeness greygnarl wears ripped pants of awesomeness greygnarl wears ripped pants of awesomeness greygnarl wears ripped pants of awesomeness greygnarl wears ripped pants of awesomeness
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

I was completely sucked in by the Heroscape ads on CN. I was about 10. Kroc is right. The game started out mass market but slowly became more niche. Basically as soon as Wave 1 came out it should've been apparent that this wouldn't sell in the mass market.

Tournament Armies Played - C3VRP - Customs - Trades

I'm Krug in the Paradox Keep and Augamo on the Sacred Tundra.
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old January 17th, 2013, 06:19 PM
blooded scion's Avatar
blooded scion blooded scion is offline
 
Join Date: May 31, 2009
Location: USA - MA - NEW BEDFORD
Posts: 124
blooded scion is surprisingly tart
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

I always thought the lack of Marvel support was a big problem.Hell heroclix releases new packs every other month you can buy them everywhere.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old January 17th, 2013, 07:30 PM
itsbuzzi's Avatar
itsbuzzi itsbuzzi is offline
 
Join Date: November 27, 2012
Location: USA - RI - Providence
Posts: 404
itsbuzzi rolls all skulls baby! itsbuzzi rolls all skulls baby! itsbuzzi rolls all skulls baby! itsbuzzi rolls all skulls baby!
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Theory Time.

After some time the potential of Heroscape will be known and will be brought out by some company. Do all of you think that Twinkies will never be seen again? Course not, some generic brand name will buy it because they have a similar product, they will use the new recipe and make their produce better. Same with Heroscape.

The highest projected market for "The New Heroscape" as previously mentioned, is in customs. Imagine having Transformers, TMNT, hell even Pokemon figures be added to the game. Unimaginable profit. It can gain costumers from anywhere.

A 7-year old boy goes to the store looking for a toy. He sees two of his favorites, Pokemon and Transformers. Then he sees "The New Heroscape" with Transformers and Pokemon. This is what he buys because it is both toys in one so to speak.

This "mass market" would start out small because of two symbols: and . Less-known cartoons/characters will be made first because they need the "free" advertisement. Then the big names will want this "free advertisement" as well. An online game will help with the momentum.

We are talking big money if you feel like adding it up, and ideas like this take time, and a better economy. With a better economy comes more risks with money. So that's my theory, for the sake of all the sets I have, I hope it happens.

Also responding to the lack of Story Line of Heroscape, I believe they had one, involving Srg. Drake and Relien, which is why they have two sculpts, and SotM was apart of this story line, but no one really has heard of it.

Keep doing what you're doing, but do it better. ~Self

Classic Card Scans & Tourney Map Building Requirements Excel Sheet
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old January 17th, 2013, 10:17 PM
kballenger kballenger is offline
 
Join Date: January 2, 2013
Location: USA - Florida - Cape Coral
Posts: 14
kballenger is a puppet of Ne-Gok-Sa
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsbuzzi View Post
Theory Time.

After some time the potential of Heroscape will be known and will be brought out by some company. Do all of you think that Twinkies will never be seen again? Course not, some generic brand name will buy it because they have a similar product, they will use the new recipe and make their produce better. Same with Heroscape.

The highest projected market for "The New Heroscape" as previously mentioned, is in customs. Imagine having Transformers, TMNT, hell even Pokemon figures be added to the game. Unimaginable profit. It can gain costumers from anywhere.

A 7-year old boy goes to the store looking for a toy. He sees two of his favorites, Pokemon and Transformers. Then he sees "The New Heroscape" with Transformers and Pokemon. This is what he buys because it is both toys in one so to speak.

This "mass market" would start out small because of two symbols: and . Less-known cartoons/characters will be made first because they need the "free" advertisement. Then the big names will want this "free advertisement" as well. An online game will help with the momentum.

We are talking big money if you feel like adding it up, and ideas like this take time, and a better economy. With a better economy comes more risks with money. So that's my theory, for the sake of all the sets I have, I hope it happens.

Also responding to the lack of Story Line of Heroscape, I believe they had one, involving Srg. Drake and Relien, which is why they have two sculpts, and SotM was apart of this story line, but no one really has heard of it.
Well said! I have been thinking the same thing and, along with many other I am sure, cannot wait for that time to come.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old January 17th, 2013, 11:10 PM
Xorlof's Avatar
Xorlof Xorlof is offline
Super Smurfy
 
Join Date: February 22, 2011
Location: WI - Stevens Point
Posts: 3,041
Images: 17
Blog Entries: 5
Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer Xorlof is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

I was thinking of responding to this thread from the angle of "Why Did Heroscape Succeed?" (from a business sense). But, as I was letting some ideas brew in my head on that, I started listening to the just-released Plaid Hat Podcast #77.

The guest this week was none other than Heroscape co-designer Rob Daviau, and the "why did Heroscape fail?" question came up. Rob cited two major issues:

1) Hasbro was inexperienced with the nuances of distributing a booster-based product. This apparently lead to many stocking issues for retailers. He specifically mentioned that WoTC would have been the better fit from that perspective.

2) The price of oil went up dramatically between when Heroscape was introduced and when it was discontinued. This increased the production costs of all the plastic included in the game.

Those seemed to be the biggies in Rob's mind.

And the big news on the podcast is that Plaid Hat Games will be publishing Rob's upcoming games now that he is no longer a Hasbro employee and is designing games independently!

There is nothing more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. --MLK
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old January 17th, 2013, 11:45 PM
SuperSamyon's Avatar
SuperSamyon SuperSamyon is offline
 
Join Date: January 5, 2012
Location: USA - TX - Houston
Posts: 349
Images: 17
SuperSamyon rolls all skulls baby! SuperSamyon rolls all skulls baby! SuperSamyon rolls all skulls baby! SuperSamyon rolls all skulls baby! SuperSamyon rolls all skulls baby!
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xorlof View Post
I was thinking of responding to this thread from the angle of "Why Did Heroscape Succeed?" (from a business sense). But, as I was letting some ideas brew in my head on that, I started listening to the just-released Plaid Hat Podcast #77.

The guest this week was none other than Heroscape co-designer Rob Daviau, and the "why did Heroscape fail?" question came up. Rob cited two major issues:

1) Hasbro was inexperienced with the nuances of distributing a booster-based product. This apparently lead to many stocking issues for retailers. He specifically mentioned that WoTC would have been the better fit from that perspective.

2) The price of oil went up dramatically between when Heroscape was introduced and when it was discontinued. This increased the production costs of all the plastic included in the game.

Those seemed to be the biggies in Rob's mind.

And the big news on the podcast is that Plaid Hat Games will be publishing Rob's upcoming games now that he is no longer a Hasbro employee and is designing games independently!
Wow! I need to check out that podcast. Thanks for the heads up. I've heard the price of plastic was the main reason why this failed.

By the way, I appreciate everyone contributing to this discussion. Lots of great points brought up!
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old January 18th, 2013, 12:49 AM
joe5joe7's Avatar
joe5joe7 joe5joe7 is offline
 
Join Date: February 7, 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 1,028
joe5joe7 knows what's in an order marker joe5joe7 knows what's in an order marker joe5joe7 knows what's in an order marker
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Honestly what I think would have helped the most is something like Valves' Steam Workshop. This would allow them to take custom ideas, run them through some play testing, and actually add them to the game. It would cut down on a bunch of design costs and give the community even more of a sense of involvement.

Even if it doesn't hit the major issues the game has, it would augment the strengths it does have. Namely it's great community and the vast amount of things that it encapsulates.


Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old January 18th, 2013, 01:54 AM
Agent Minivann's Avatar
Agent Minivann Agent Minivann is offline
Quest Quitter
 
Join Date: May 10, 2006
Location: AZ - Tucson
Posts: 6,886
Blog Entries: 2
Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death! Agent Minivann is hot lava death!
Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by itsbuzzi View Post
The highest projected market for "The New Heroscape" as previously mentioned, is in customs. Imagine having Transformers, TMNT, hell even Pokemon figures be added to the game. Unimaginable profit. It can gain costumers from anywhere.

A 7-year old boy goes to the store looking for a toy. He sees two of his favorites, Pokemon and Transformers. Then he sees "The New Heroscape" with Transformers and Pokemon. This is what he buys because it is both toys in one so to speak.

This "mass market" would start out small because of two symbols: and . Less-known cartoons/characters will be made first because they need the "free" advertisement. Then the big names will want this "free advertisement" as well. An online game will help with the momentum.

We are talking big money if you feel like adding it up, and ideas like this take time, and a better economy. With a better economy comes more risks with money. So that's my theory, for the sake of all the sets I have, I hope it happens.
There are a lot of hurdles with this idea.

One being that Hasbro is not likely to sell their IP, or sit idly while someone else tries to make money using it. They aren't or haven't yet pulled a Games Workshop on the customs community, but another company would invoke the full wrath of their legal department. Even if Hasbro sold or licensed the IP, it would be a pretty big cost/investment.

Two being that other properties (TMNT, Transformers, Pokemon, etc.) would have to be either owned by the "New Heroscape" company or they would need to be licensed. Odds are Hasbro made very little profit on Marvel, and/or the license costs are the reason there was so little terrain. It might also be a problem if the company that owns those properties looks at Marvel Heroscape and asks why it will work for a new company when it didn't work with Hasbro and Marvel.

Those are two big hurdles (and possibly really big costs) without even talking about plastic and labor prices (both are probably more expensive now.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Official Classic HeroScape > HeroScape General Discussion
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Biggest heroscape FAIL Marro Divider #4 HeroScape General Discussion 71 October 5th, 2011 10:53 PM
Deathwalker: Fail and Fall Dadnarg434 Custom Units & Army Cards 12 February 13th, 2011 09:26 PM
Just had an epic fail azrael427 HeroScape General Discussion 13 September 6th, 2010 04:45 PM
FAIL Nooblar General 44 January 5th, 2009 10:22 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:21 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2021 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.