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  #13  
Old January 11th, 2013, 01:16 PM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

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Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
I may be in the minority, but I was actually hooked on scape by the commercials on Cartoon Network.
You're not alone. I saw "build your own battlefield' and "battle of time and space", and I was hooked. Warriors from across space and time fighting on a battlefield I created? I got it for Christmas, and man, best Christmas present ever.

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Old January 11th, 2013, 01:51 PM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

1. Hasbro wasn't used to distributing a hobby game like this to retailers like Wal-Mart.
2. It cost too much to produce a pre-painted miniatures game and maintain the old prices.

2 is the big one, and beyond the control of anything the game itself did. Look at what happened to just about every other mini's game between 2007 and 2012. 2005 was a totally different time. Gas was still under 2 bucks a gallon; plastic and chinese labor were cheaper too.

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Old January 11th, 2013, 01:57 PM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

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Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
I may be in the minority, but I was actually hooked on scape by the commercials on Cartoon Network.
You're not alone. I saw "build your own battlefield' and "battle of time and space", and I was hooked. Warriors from across space and time fighting on a battlefield I created? I got it for Christmas, and man, best Christmas present ever.
I saw the commercial and got it for Christmas too! Build your own battlefield was what got me hooked too. I remember that after seeing the commercial, I wanted to be the Tarn and my brother wanted to be the Izumi.

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Old January 11th, 2013, 04:50 PM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
1. Hasbro wasn't used to distributing a hobby game like this to retailers like Wal-Mart.
2. It cost too much to produce a pre-painted miniatures game and maintain the old prices.

2 is the big one, and beyond the control of anything the game itself did. Look at what happened to just about every other mini's game between 2007 and 2012. 2005 was a totally different time. Gas was still under 2 bucks a gallon; plastic and chinese labor were cheaper too.
I'll second this. Perhaps a related issue is that from day one the marketing was really geared to kids, while it was the old guys like me who were throwing down a couple grand on the game.

It was intended to be mass market, but in the end it really ended up as a hobby game. There was simply too much stuff to be handled by a Walmart or Target.

I still wonder what the price point would have to be to make RotV profitable today. Any guesses? $100? $150? That puts it well outside mass market, but the hobby market would eat it up, I think. Wouldn't it be fun to see how well a Heroscape Kickstarter would do?

And as great as my disdain for WotC remains, I may actually have to agree with Agent Minivan's post.

(Yuck, I feel dirty just typing that... the WotC part not the Agent Minivan part )
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  #17  
Old January 11th, 2013, 05:53 PM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

I don't know if it had any affect, but Swarm of the Marro was, in my opinion, a really bad choice for a master set. RotV had Vikings, Samurai, Robots, a Dragon, an Orc riding a Dinosaur, Matrix guys, Army guys, etc.

SotM had a bunch of Marro (which few outside of the game would get excited about like they would something recognizable), one Robot, one Ninja, one Elf, one Army guy, and one winged woman.

I don't know if even brisk sales of SotM could have overcome the rising price of gas, etc., but what if they had packed it with knights, vampires, zombies, guys in power armor, pirates, etc.? - things that are instantly recognizable/appealing to a number of different people.
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  #18  
Old January 11th, 2013, 06:48 PM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Yes, I think SotM marks a point where the game design was leaning to the hobby market but Hasbro was still trying to sell it mass market.
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  #19  
Old January 11th, 2013, 07:20 PM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

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Originally Posted by GatekeeperDatuck View Post
I don't know if even brisk sales of SotM could have overcome the rising price of gas, etc., but what if they had packed it with knights, vampires, zombies, guys in power armor, pirates, etc.? - things that are instantly recognizable/appealing to a number of different people.
Not once, but twice Pirates of the Carribean movies came out, and my dad and I would talk to eachother, saying what a great thing a pirate master set would be. Clearly this wasn't the downfall of scape, but I do think Scape would have sold very well if such a master set was released around the times either movie came out.

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  #20  
Old January 11th, 2013, 11:40 PM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Yes, Pirates was one of the most wanted Heroscape expansion topics onsite here; but it appears that no one was listening! For an interesting game on this topic played with regular pieces see Kolakoski's PIRATES custom scenario, where you build two big ships and then board each other!
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  #21  
Old January 12th, 2013, 12:24 AM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

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Originally Posted by Porkachu View Post
snip
Great points! Hasbro had a gold mine with Marvel. Look what Disney has done with the Marvel franchise? Had Hasbro kept Heroscape alive, imagine what type of Master Sets it could have released with the new Avengers movie.

I remember walking into Walmart one day and seeing the Marvel Heroscape. I didn't understand what it was about since I didn't see any other pieces for it. I wondered if it was a standalone game or if it was still a part of the Heroscape brand.

I agree completely with the ease of designing new characters for the booster packs. Our excellent C3G team has done great things with Marvel and DC and they've done it out of passion. Imagine what could have been done if this was a part of the main line. Such a waste.

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Your OP is very well thought out, and some of it new to me from the perspective of younger players who are more game savvy about newer stuff than I am. Thanks for the thoughts.

I think many older players are just traumatized and burned out on the topic! Also, I'm afraid that the game mostly "failed" because of bad corporate decisions, and we couldn't do much about that. We tried, believe me.

The positive way to move on for most of us still here is to support and enjoy FANSCAPE, whatever that means to you. But many of us would support any new corporate initiative with the marvelous game system, or even part of it, should that occur in the future. There was plenty of speculation and hope about that even after the actual cancellation.

As someone once said: Chess hasn't had any expansions for a while, but its still being played...

Peace!
Thanks for your kind words! I'm glad someone appreciated this topic. Part of the reason why I wanted to make this post was to go over ideas on how Heroscape could have been successful so that the next go around they can get it right

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This community is so awesome. That AI is incredibly detailed! What other game (video or otherwise) has this kind of passionate community? Hasbro do you know what you had?

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Also, I'm afraid that the game mostly "failed" because of bad corporate decisions, and we couldn't do much about that. We tried, believe me.
Ironically, I think it may have been handled better if it started out with Wizards of the Coast.
Hmm, I'm curious why you think that? Wouldn't Wizards of the Coast made it completely D&D related thereby losing out the originality of Heroscape?

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Originally Posted by greygnarl View Post
I may be in the minority, but I was actually hooked on scape by the commercials on Cartoon Network.
Yes! This is what I'm talking about. If an animated commercial got you hooked, imagine what a full television serious would have done for you and others like you! Hasbro could have started a "Catch em all Craze" matching Pokemon or Magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
1. Hasbro wasn't used to distributing a hobby game like this to retailers like Wal-Mart.
2. It cost too much to produce a pre-painted miniatures game and maintain the old prices.

2 is the big one, and beyond the control of anything the game itself did. Look at what happened to just about every other mini's game between 2007 and 2012. 2005 was a totally different time. Gas was still under 2 bucks a gallon; plastic and chinese labor were cheaper too.
I had a respected poster PM a similar response regarding costs. The funny thing is, Hasbro could have saved costs on the packaging. Have you ever really examined a Booster set? How much extra cardboard and plastic is used that is really not necessary?

Also, they were already charging a 10-12 bucks for a couple of small figures, how could the cost really be out of control? Walk down your local toystore and you'll see figures twice the size of Heroscape costing the same amount of money as a booster pack yet they used more medal. Hasbro just didn't have the cost under control in this game.

[QUOTE=jbbnbsmith;1743354]
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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I'll second this. Perhaps a related issue is that from day one the marketing was really geared to kids, while it was the old guys like me who were throwing down a couple grand on the game.

It was intended to be mass market, but in the end it really ended up as a hobby game. There was simply too much stuff to be handled by a Walmart or Target.
This is perhaps the biggest problem with Heroscape. Who really was the intended audience?

Ask yourself this, if you are a young boy making a measly few bucks a week for allowance, how much disposable cash do you really have? And yet, Hasbro wanted you to spend your few bucks not on a cool action figure, but on miniature plastic toys that didn't pose or move. For bang for your buck, the booster packs were not a good buy. You would have had to have been REALLY into Heroscape to start seriously collecting the packs in lieu of spending your money towards video games or cool action figures. For the same 10 bucks, you could buy a Transformer or a Batman figure.

This is why Hasbro needed some type of multimedia to get kids excited about the Heroscape line. The miniatures were not that exciting unless you had a cool backstory. Remember when you were a kid and you got a toy that didn't pose? Remember how much that sucked?

To me, a better idea would have been to market Heroscape to the adult collector and board gamer. We are the ones who can appreciate a quality game and we have the disposable income to buy over priced booster packs. We would even be willing to overlook the gimmick of buying one booster pack twice (or more)!

Quote:
Originally Posted by GatekeeperDatuck View Post
I don't know if it had any affect, but Swarm of the Marro was, in my opinion, a really bad choice for a master set. RotV had Vikings, Samurai, Robots, a Dragon, an Orc riding a Dinosaur, Matrix guys, Army guys, etc.

SotM had a bunch of Marro (which few outside of the game would get excited about like they would something recognizable), one Robot, one Ninja, one Elf, one Army guy, and one winged woman.

I don't know if even brisk sales of SotM could have overcome the rising price of gas, etc., but what if they had packed it with knights, vampires, zombies, guys in power armor, pirates, etc.? - things that are instantly recognizable/appealing to a number of different people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jbbnbsmith View Post
Yes, I think SotM marks a point where the game design was leaning to the hobby market but Hasbro was still trying to sell it mass market.
As you pointed out and as others have said, Swarm of the Marro was an awful Master Set. It really should have been an Expansion set. The Jungle or Tundra should have been a part of the Master set instead.

I remember when I first saw the Swarm of the Marrow set how confused I was. At this point, I had only bought the Walmart exclusive Master Set and Road to the Forgotten Forest expansion.

I remember thinking to myself "This Swarm set has nothing but Marrow in it... where are all the cool figures? The marrow are boring!" When I did more research on the set, I remember being shocked that they even included multiples of the same figure. Since I had no idea what a common figure was I was so disappointed.

"Why would they do that? What a cheap gimmick! Who wants more than one of the same figure?"

Because of the duplicate figures, I remember skipping it all together. Yep, that was the main reason!

I also didn't find it very interesting since it seemed to focus on strange creatures instead of cool robots and such. All in all, it just seemed like it went against the spirit of Heroscape since the original Heroscape had all types of characters and this Heroscape only had one. I didn't understand it at the time.


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Originally Posted by chas View Post
Yes, Pirates was one of the most wanted Heroscape expansion topics onsite here; but it appears that no one was listening! For an interesting game on this topic played with regular pieces see Kolakoski's PIRATES custom scenario, where you build two big ships and then board each other!
Sigh, pirates. The one genre of characters that never got any love. A Pirates Master set with ships and Tundra and Jungle would have been so much more exciting. Instead, we had to track down the coolest terrain. I just now played a game that had two Tundra sets... it looked beautiful.

Great responses guys!
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  #22  
Old January 12th, 2013, 01:40 AM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Wow, there's a bunch of points here I had never thought about.

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Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
I'll second this. Perhaps a related issue is that from day one the marketing was really geared to kids, while it was the old guys like me who were throwing down a couple grand on the game.
The various marketing strategies discussed makes a lot of sense, especially the fact that it was marketed to a young audience but it was really more the Warhammer-type audience they needed to advertise too (adults with the interest and money to spend).

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Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
I had a respected poster PM a similar response regarding costs. The funny thing is, Hasbro could have saved costs on the packaging. Have you ever really examined a Booster set? How much extra cardboard and plastic is used that is really not necessary?
This is something I notice with many products, but especially heroscape. Granted, that packaging ensured the pieces weren't damaged in shipping, but it mayhab was excessive.

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Originally Posted by chas View Post
Yes, Pirates was one of the most wanted Heroscape expansion topics onsite here; but it appears that no one was listening! For an interesting game on this topic played with regular pieces see Kolakoski's PIRATES custom scenario, where you build two big ships and then board each other!
Hmm, pirates? Haven't put much thought into what a pirate unit could look like. Though there's definitely a plethora of special abilities one could come up with fitting that theme.

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  #23  
Old January 12th, 2013, 01:46 AM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

1. I think lots of people, myself included saw the game in stores and thought "holy crap I'd have to spend a fortune on this game before it would be any fun", so they never bought a single Scape product and never once played.

The biggest problem here was that the game was amazingly fun! After playing just one game, you wish, want, must have more! They should have taken the game pre-release and given vendor copies to hundreds of game shops statewide. Let players see the game and touch it with their own hands; let them play it, and see that it was worth the price.

2. This game had no chance as a cartoon. Frankly suggesting that it would have done better if they were to have made one for it is slightly crazy.

At the most they would have just wasted more money on the failed venture into T.V.

3. Without the product popularity, and no sizable fan base, a video game would have just bombed as well.

I do however think that if they released a computer game this week the game would see massive play. Especially if they incorporated a terrain building editor and some online play. Even better if it had the potential for custom units and map features.

4. Please remember that many players enjoy the terrain building aspect of this product. The game as a whole would not have the fan base that it does not if the availability to customize the map was not present. You cannot have the ability to customize the map and the ability to set the map up quickly unless you are willing to set up easy quick maps at the cost of complexity. Which, honestly you have... take 6 24 hex's and link them together. You have a large map that you can play on with only 1 min of prep time. If you want amazing maps that you can build to suit your needs and desires you will have to sacrifice time for quality.

5. This is by design. The product only makes money for the producer if it sells. If you need an opponent to play you are then forced to help the producer make money by searching out players who either already have Scape or help to convince new players to buy the products. Hell most of us know by now that our friends only play because either we got them into the game of they got us into it. Few people impulse buy a game like this after seeing it in stores. The game was not appealing at the release price.

They were dependent on word of mouth and getting new players interested into the game. Something that would not have happened in a single player game.

6. This is a given. Though to remain cost effective, the quality would have had to drop even more.

7. There was nothing wrong with the theme. The only real issue here was everything was generic. They should have had a few other well known (knock offs) present in the game. There should have been Terminator looking cyborgs, predator looking hunters, transformer like robots, there was so much potential to get product recognition from kids and adults alike without paying a boat load of cash to secure the rights.

8. This was a gold mine that never came till long after the Scape fight had left the table. By the time Marvel even came along Scape was already dead.

9. See 8.

10. Welcome to big companies. This is the way of board games. Think about the population density of board game players when compared to console games. You are talking about apples and oranges. These two things are not comparable at all.

11. As long as the game stayed in stores, I think the producers had heard Scape's death rattle long before they pulled the plug. It never kept them in the black and so they leeched what they could from it while putting as little in as possible. Which is why at the end they reused so much and the game has so little original material.

12. I don't know about tourneys for a relatively unpopular game. But demonstrations and free to try vendor editions sent to shops like I said before would have let new players see why the game was worth the investment.

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  #24  
Old January 12th, 2013, 01:47 AM
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Re: Discussion: Why Did Heroscape Fail?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
1. Hasbro wasn't used to distributing a hobby game like this to retailers like Wal-Mart.
2. It cost too much to produce a pre-painted miniatures game and maintain the old prices.

2 is the big one, and beyond the control of anything the game itself did. Look at what happened to just about every other mini's game between 2007 and 2012. 2005 was a totally different time. Gas was still under 2 bucks a gallon; plastic and chinese labor were cheaper too.

And along with jbbnbsmith's comment about older players with money driving the sales up. For example, I was spending about $200-300 per small expansion, big expansion/terrain, and master set wave.

I also specifically remember the packaging issues for stores like Walmart and Target with the sku numbers all being the same in the store--meaning the stores employees saw now difference between small packs among small packs, or large packs among large packs. This let to an over stock of unique packs--such a the Nakita and Gladiator packs. Also the shelves held a surplus of Orm's Return, but the store computer saw no difference with that and the Forest set...the biggest issue was Hasbro sold with and even distribution of all boxes, when they should have made more common packs to dillute unique packs. In short, players can use and usually want 2+ packs of commons, but not 2+ of unique packs, and unfortunately the cases packaging/distribution did not fit this model that was established by the rules of the game.

Last, the hobby/games stores started to get it half way through, but actually after SOTM. Some of these stores could not get the game cheap enough to still sell it for a profit, when competing Target or Walmart prices down the street. The aspect of the hobby/game stores, the "gamers" as those stores saw it as Hasbro game marketed to kids, compared Warhammer and other more hard-core non-mass market gamer brands.

I know I have put over 6K into the game over the years from official product to a list too long of customized figures--and that may be still low. I remember when I sold all my extra "still in the package shelf display extras--all sets from the 1st edition ROTV through Wave 4 for $400.00, about 5 years ago.

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