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  #169  
Old February 6th, 2021, 10:44 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

With the changes to the design, I'm open to retheming her as something other than Durnipia. One of the primary drawbacks to this choice would be that it could make a future Durnipia harder to design. More than any other archetype, I think that "healer" figures are difficult to design in a way that makes them play differently from each other without being either useless or overpowered. This is especially true for a figure whose primary focus is on healing. Mechanically, I still think this design is as good a fit for Durnipia as we could hope for, but I understand the appeal of retheming into a more generic fantasy nymph direction.

If we do go that direction, I think I'd prefer a species of Nymph as its a bit more generic and reusable than Naiad. I'm not quite sure what the class would be, mayyybe Sentinel? Or we could just go with Healer.

Another option that I had proposed over in the discord a while back and which seemed to have some appeal was to retheme her as a Mutant from the Earth 2210 timeline. The Earth 2210 timeline is already an established part of the Heroscape canon and based on another game designed by Craig Van Ness, Risk 2210 AD. In that game, there is an underwater city territory called "Microcorp" which has pretty obvious connections to the Microcorp Agents. I believe that Agent Carr and Isamu were also confirmed to be taken from the 2210 setting. As c3v begins to further explore the 2210+ setting with Motley Max, I think there is an opportunity to tie in Durnipia as another Mutant from that timeline. There is even an underwater city off the coast of Mexico called New Atlantis which could serve as the perfect location for her backstory.

Thematically, I think that she'd also provide a really interesting contrast as a Mutant to Motley Max. Her bio could explain how, even as the effects of the fallout drove many to embrace their most violent inclinations, there were still some who attempted to use their newfound powers to bring comfort and healing to other survivors.

If we went this direction, she would have the species Mutant. For the class, I think Telepath could be a nice way to further clarify the nature of her healing and water controlling powers.

It would also be nice to feature some more diversity in the Master Set. Since most of the sculpts lend themselves most naturally to fantasy themes, including another scifi figure besides Tetsuo and the Velnesh would be great.

Last edited by Captain Stupendous; February 6th, 2021 at 11:12 AM.
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  #170  
Old February 6th, 2021, 02:51 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

Not opposed to the idea but I dont get mutant or futuristic by looking at her sculpt. I also think that Durnipia, in whatever form she appears, needs to interact with squad figures if she appears because her lore statement ties her to the 10th reg. So, I dont think itll ever increase in difficulty and I dont really have strong feelings about the character.

If a sculpt is a thing and isnt easily recognizable as another thing, I dont think it should be forced. Motley Max is a great example because the sculpt is Rakdos Ogre from the Rakdos guild... that setting literally embodies the same motifs as a mad max dystopia (circus of demonic chaos). This is a mystical water humanoid complete with casting focus, we can imagine her doing it cinematically in a few different ways. Especially if we are looking for c3v recognition if not integration in the future as an overall measure of quality, I dont think this figure was intended to nor is easily construed as futuristic.
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  #171  
Old February 6th, 2021, 06:15 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

Is there somewhere to read the story behind Risk 2210? I've been searching but struggled to find much. Not knowing anything about Risk or wanting to break themes for what C3V is doing, I'm hesitant to make her a mutant. If it doesn't break the setting they're expanding upon then I wouldn't be against it. Do we know if C3V are directly going for Risk 2210, or loosely inspired by it and doing their own thing? Are those living in New Atlantis actually mutated to be fish people, or simply have the technology to safely be down there?

I personally still prefer Nymph with Priestess or something of the like as a class, but I can be swayed. I just don't know how big of a jump it is to have humans and mutated but still pretty much human, and then a fish person with magic/psionic abilities.

I agree on the diversity front, and it is a struggle to find historical and sci-fi units in a figure set that's heavy fantasy, but we shouldn't force it either. Again I can be swayed, I don't detest the idea but I currently prefer Nymph a lot more and am worried about the mutant route not fitting in with that setting that's being established.
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  #172  
Old February 9th, 2021, 07:04 PM
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A compilation of left hands.

Alright Pod 2 (and other onlookers!), since we probably aren't going to do Durnipia at this point, what other theme do we want to go?

Right now the top competitors (as discussed on discord) are:

A) Nymph (Feylund): pretty easy change... new general/name and we should be done.
B) Mutant (Earth 2210): Motley Max opened the gates here, and we can do some interesting bio references. May or may not require some retooling of the unit.
C) Alien race (Marr): they have a lot of biological and water themes going on. May or may not require light retooling of the unit depending on the themes we wish to evoke.
D) Water Alien (Arctorus): Another dumping ground for Sci Fi units if we aren't comfortable with putting her on Marr. Retooling certainly not necessary here.
E) <insert other ideas here>

Right now I'm ranking them as:
A
B (with some retooling)
D
C

Primarily my logic is two-fold:
1) She looks like a nymph or other mer creature and we should try to reduce stretching as needed. Let the card tell the tale, not the bio.
2)I'm lazy and don't want to retool the design too much. And I don't entirely like some of the themes crossing as is (I can definately be convinced otherwise and will go along with it the other Pod 2 members prefer one route of course).

Basically, we have a cool, playable, design right now. We just need to get the left box stats (and planet) down. If we go with the Earth 2210 route we should also be looking at getting a drafted bio written to explain why this human has fins, gills, and water manipulation powers.

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Last edited by flameslayer93; February 12th, 2021 at 02:27 PM. Reason: Changed order.
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  #173  
Old February 9th, 2021, 07:30 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

My ranking for those choices is:

A
D
C
B

I would be against making any more mechanical changes as well. We have a good design, the sculpt looks great and we shouldn't try to stretch anything. Let's call it what it is and embrace either a fantasy or native water species, that's my input. I'm particularly against Mutant and earth 2210 because I just don't see it with what I'm holding in my hand.
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  #174  
Old February 10th, 2021, 04:28 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

My choices are:

1: A
It makes the most sense to me, and we could write some fun lore with her relating to others on Feylund. The original design was done around this sort of thing anyway, and the design is in a good spot. The fact she works well with the Elves too is another fun nod. This planet has the most to options in regards to writing, and since this planet is mythology central, why wouldn't there be Nymphs?

2: D
We could do a similar thing as with A but change it up a little. I'm still not entirely sure what exactly Arctorus is, I don't think I've ever read an explanation as to what the planet is like beyond lots of sci-fi stuff is there. But there is enough diversity on the planet that I don't see this character being out of place.

3: B
This one is pushing it. She's bringing a lot more elements to the table as a mutant than Motley Max does. And I'd rather we didn't try to push the boundaries for what could work here when we don't know VC's stance on it nor what they plan to do with the setting and future units. If 2210 is basically mirroring Risk 2210 then I would like to see any and all lore for that game so we know exactly what is happening on there. So far all I've seen is a map which isn't enough. However I can be sold on it if these bases are covered.

4: C
I just can't see her being from Marr. Everything on Marr is some kind of humanoid animal, where as this mini looks more human with animal elements, if that makes sense? The fish elements of the figure aren't strong enough to sell me here.

EDIT: Found this article where Rob Daviau talks about the story of Risk 2210 since it was never published. Seems to be mostly about robots and mentions what is likely New Atlantis just being somewhere to avoid robots. No genetic modification stuff seems to be involved otherwise it would of likely have been discussed. And from looking up the game more, Motley Max's nuclear wasteland is likely from the game's mechanic where at the start of the game, 4 areas are randomly chosen to be nuclear wastelands and are no-go areas.

Last edited by Skinderella; February 10th, 2021 at 04:48 AM.
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  #175  
Old February 10th, 2021, 11:33 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

My preferences are:

1: B Mutant/Atlantean from Earth 2210 or 2220
This and Feylund are relatively close together for me. However, we already have an abundance of designs which come from Feylund compared to the relatively unexplored setting of Earth 2210, despite it being a source of inspiration for official units (the Microcorp Agents). I find the idea of fleshing out the world of Earth 2210 to be extremely interesting, especially because it is currently a relatively blank slate (the original game of Risk 2210 was fairly light on official lore, instead providing a map of the world with altered territory names that were thematically evocative while remaining open to interpretation). The Earth 2210 setting is fairly unique from most of what we've seen in Heroscape so far, while remaining grounded in the official Heroscape lore and canon.

In response to Skinderella's observations above, it's worth noting that Motley is from Earth 2220 AD, which is 10 years after the Risk 2210 war. Even though 4 areas are chosen to be nuclear wastelands at the start of a game of Risk 2210, there is also a deck of nuclear cards which can be used to attack other territories throughout the game, so its likely that Motley comes from an even more apocalyptic version of the world set after the widespread destruction of the war.

Also, the part in the interview mentioning underwater cities wasn't referring to New Atlantis specifically so much as explaining why underwater cities in general were originally founded. New Atlantis is just one of 13 underwater cities, (Microcorp is actually another underwater city) so it would make sense to me if different cities had different technological focuses.

2: A Nymph or other mythological creature from Feylund
I think that Nymph as a species is a good fit for the sculpt and powers and would be fine to see this figure originating from Feylund, even if its a slightly less interesting choice than Earth 2210/2220. If we do settle on Nymph as a species, I'm less sure about using Priestess as a class, since when I think of Priestess I picture the Priest/Priestess as humans communicating with the Nymphs/mythological creatures, not the other way around. I think Priestess would be a much better fit if we made her a random alien priestess from Arctorus. Which brings me to my third choice,

3: D Random Alien Priestess from Arctorus.
I think this is also a potentially strong direction, and after thinking about it more might even prefer it over option A. My one reservation would be that Arctorus as a planet seems to be somewhat lacking in overall identity to me, so I'm less interested in designing customs from there until c3v has solidified a stronger overall aesthetic for the setting. However, given what we do know, and with the upcoming addition of more cthulu-like aliens that are likely from Arctorus, I think an alien priestess would fit right in with the pulp sci-fi/horror themes.

4: C Alien race from Marr.
I just don't see it. This is the one direction that I would be actively opposed to, as has been mentioned before she seems far more humanoid than any other race we have seen from Marr yet. I suppose one could say that Marro are relatively humanoid, but to me her design is so different from Marro that making her be from the same planet as them just feels wrong. I could elaborate more on why this option doesn't sit well with me, but it already seems to be one of the least popular options anyway.

Last edited by Captain Stupendous; February 10th, 2021 at 02:52 PM.
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  #176  
Old February 10th, 2021, 12:09 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

@Amarant @Zetsubo @Pumpkin_King

Your takes?

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  #177  
Old February 10th, 2021, 11:38 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

A
D
B
C

I really think we're overthinking it and should just go with a fantasy water creature or alien priestess.
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  #178  
Old February 10th, 2021, 11:47 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

Discussed this with some of you in the discord. I'm happy to expand further here but I'll try to keep my answer brief.

D, C, A, B.

D: I honestly think this checks all the boxes. The mini just feels at home next to all the order canon characters from Arctorus and her powerset feels appropriate.

C: This feels pretty open because you can kind of explain anything as "it's alien". I think C has a darker tone by necessity, but Marr gets away with some absolutely crazy stuff. We already have gorilla people, bird people, bone people, bone serpents, bone wolves and bone dragons. Fish people don't seem like an unreasonable stretch and Marr is a rich and deeply expandable setting.

A. She's fantasy. Feylund is fantasy. This adds up. Feels boring, though.

B: I like the idea of Earth 2210 conceptually, but nothing about it suggests that somebody should be able to freely manipulate water. We're not just talking about representing her mutant status via a change in ability and physical appearance, we're also saying that, for some reason, mutants in this universe have a fantasy inspired wardrobe. That doesn't work for me, imo.
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  #179  
Old February 11th, 2021, 03:15 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

I'd do A but from Toril (home of elementals, Sahaugin raider, and more fantasy creatures) rather than Feylund (more the dwarf/elf/humanoid fantasy) and stick with the great mechanics already designed. D makes sense too, but those are new waters to dip into (appropriate for her to do though!)
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  #180  
Old February 12th, 2021, 09:42 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Durnipia (Kiora, the Rising Tide) - Design?

Mostly agree with @Captain Stupendous .

B: I think part of what some are struggling with for this option is the term "mutant" has been thrown around too loosely. She would not be a mutant in the same way Motley Max is, and in fact I don't think she'd be a mutant at all (though I will point out again that even if she were, the two types - genetic and nuclear wasteland - are not mutually exclusive). The Earth 2210 timeline from RISK that already has a bunch of Heroscape connections (namely Microcorp Agents/Troopers), plus the Motely Max 2220 connection, includes genetic research and the underwater city New Atlantis. Durnipia* is a perfect fit for an altered future human from this setting. And yes I have the mini in hand: she's a blue humanoid with fins, this is not a stretch. Her garb has been brought into question, but it also seems fitting to me: it's gold and has a scale/shell look to it that fits the Atlantean trope. The New Atlanteans are reclaiming their long lost heritage, including the look and the technology (sort of a la Assassin's Creed) recovered from the ocean: her bident which allows her to manipulate water/liquids, moving and healing allies and making attacks. Bringing it back around to my earlier point: her species would be [New] Atlantean, not mutant.

*It's worth reiterating that we only know 2 sentences about Durnipia, neither of which would preclude us from using the name for any of these options.
From Valguard: "It was on Valhalla that Valguard had the alien lizard arm magically attached by Durnipia, to replace his lost arm."
I'll quote Thor for this one: "Your ancestors called it magic, but you call it science. I come from a land where they are one and the same." That is to say, for the inhabitants of Valhalla technology that is alien to their world is indistinguishable from some kind of magic.
From the 10th: "Madam Durnipia has healed many from grievous wound that surely should have killed them."
All that tells us is she's a healer. It is a little disappointing that Healing Waters doesn't currently do anything for Squad figures. That could be retooled to wound prevention, but mechanically and meta-game wise it may make sense to keep it limited to heroes. And we all know the bios don't translate perfectly to game mechanics [looking at you, Khosumet].)

A: This is palatable if unexciting. Feylund is vastly preferable to Toril for a couple reasons: this isn't a D&D set so a one-off D&D character feels really out of place, and it was a mistake to include D&D in the Heroscape canon in the first place since it's a game played on Earth... which exists in the same canon.

D: Arctorus is a bit muddled and I don't see a concrete place for her there.

C: There are four distinct species at war on Marr with full factions. I don't think adding a one-off fish lady does us any favors.


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