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  #85  
Old October 4th, 2020, 12:18 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

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Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
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Originally Posted by Strack9 View Post
What if she creates a new kind of space like Wave Space or Sea Water and then define it like the rulebook does for Swamp Water; "counts as water for abilities that use water.

It would be a shame to have to scrap the Carried By Waves power. I kind of like it
The first half or second half? The first half only mildly limits moving around in engagements (and triggers a few water-based powers, like working as a defensive booster for Microcorp). The second half doesn't require the water conversion.
I like the first half because it lets Healing Waters always have a potential target.

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  #86  
Old October 4th, 2020, 02:46 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

Another option is "All spaces within 4 CSS count as water spaces for the purposes of Special Powers on army cards you control". IT would eliminate a little of its offensive/disruption ability, but make it less of a headache for RTS/GIE possibly?
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  #87  
Old October 6th, 2020, 07:38 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

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Another option is "All spaces within 4 CSS count as water spaces for the purposes of Special Powers on army cards you control". IT would eliminate a little of its offensive/disruption ability, but make it less of a headache for RTS/GIE possibly?
I don't see the problem with the current interaction? Unless I'm missing something, it seems relatively clear that any spaces between Durnipia and Re-Tak-Shi will always be turned to swamp water, and all spaces between Durnipia and Greater Ice Elemental will be turned to ice.
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  #88  
Old October 6th, 2020, 08:16 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

My reading would also be that tiles affected by both powers always end up as swamp water anyway, since Carried by Waves only affects land spaces and Swamp Ooze affects both. I don't know if that's the correct or best approach, but it's the route that makes the most sense to me.

That said, the deeper concern is how this kind of interaction might get expanded on in the future. I don't think that it's immediately intuitive which order to apply these kinds of powers in, and short of setting up a hierarchy of terrain-changing effects (which I'd really prefer to not do here), these interactions will only get more complex as more terrain-changing powers emerge. I think that it's a valid question to ask whether this level of complexity rules-interaction-wise is justifiable for the project, with a variety of other factors like how common our players will be experiencing the issues once they start expanding the game playing in as well.
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  #89  
Old October 6th, 2020, 09:12 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

IMO the interaction is fine as-is, and the answer is already given to us by the RTS/GIE interaction. RTS turns everything to swamp water, then the GIE turns it into ice, per RTS' R&C. RTS has a constant effect, while GIE's use of "while..." means you have to check the status of the space, then apply the effect if able. Durnipia also uses "while..." so the interactions would be:
  • Spaces within 1 of both RTS and Durnipia are water. RTS turns them into swamp, then Durnipia checks if she's on a land space and if so turns them into water
  • If RTS is within 1 space of Durnipia, she does not change adjacent spaces. RTS changes Durnipia's space to swamp water, then when she checks she is not on a land space and does nothing
Bonus theme: engaging the healer with the vile Marro corrupts her waters with swamp (although it doesn't actually affect her negatively, since figures already don't have to stop in swamp water, and swamp water still counts as water for her healing; on a related note, maybe we can differentiate that by saying "subtract 5 from your roll if the figure is on a swamp water space).


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  #90  
Old October 10th, 2020, 11:54 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

How does everyone feel about my suggested changes for Carried by Waves vs what is in the OP? I'll share them again as a refresher:

Current Wording:
Quote:
CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a land space, that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.
My suggested wording:
Quote:
CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 5 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.
Also, just for reference, Re-Tak-Shi's Swamp Ooze ability which I based my suggested wording on. Note that I also think the interaction between Swamp Ooze and Carried by Waves is clearer with my suggested wording:
Quote:
SWAMP OOZE
All land or water spaces within 1 space of Re-Tak-Shi that are no more than 5 levels above or below Re-Tak-Shi's base are considered swamp water spaces.
Once we've finalized the wording on her powers and confirmed the leftbox stats, I think she should be just about ready for public review?
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  #91  
Old October 10th, 2020, 11:59 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

Looks good to me. After some serious high level analysis, I'm thinking the terraforming bit is worth keeping in the context of MS and because RTS already included a contingency plan that feels as though it was made specifically for water creation powers, we should proceed.

I'll update the OP when I'm back on my laptop.

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  #92  
Old October 11th, 2020, 01:44 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

I think that basing the wording off of Re-Tak-Shi makes the most sense here. I hadn't realized that the current wording included clauses about her being forced to be on a land space; that seems unnecessary to me and I'd prefer to mirror the closest terrain-changing precedent. I'm no editor, of course, but I think that it also results in a more understandable card.
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  #93  
Old October 11th, 2020, 08:27 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

I get why (because of RTS), but it's kinda weird that she doesn't change non-land spaces.


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  #94  
Old October 12th, 2020, 08:05 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

What non-land spaces would it make sense to change? Not lava, surely.

I'm good to put her in public review. Cap S's wording is solid.
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  #95  
Old October 13th, 2020, 11:07 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
IMO the interaction is fine as-is, and the answer is already given to us by the RTS/GIE interaction. RTS turns everything to swamp water, then the GIE turns it into ice, per RTS' R&C. RTS has a constant effect, while GIE's use of "while..." means you have to check the status of the space, then apply the effect if able. Durnipia also uses "while..." so the interactions would be:
  • Spaces within 1 of both RTS and Durnipia are water. RTS turns them into swamp, then Durnipia checks if she's on a land space and if so turns them into water
  • If RTS is within 1 space of Durnipia, she does not change adjacent spaces. RTS changes Durnipia's space to swamp water, then when she checks she is not on a land space and does nothing
Bonus theme: engaging the healer with the vile Marro corrupts her waters with swamp (although it doesn't actually affect her negatively, since figures already don't have to stop in swamp water, and swamp water still counts as water for her healing; on a related note, maybe we can differentiate that by saying "subtract 5 from your roll if the figure is on a swamp water space).
I don't buy it. The "while" on GIE does not have the effect you claim (the GIE-RTS interaction works for other reasons), and and I'm not convinced that a land space adjacent to RTS is not still a "land space."

A land space between RTS and Durnipia is not clear. Both are able to change the other's space types to their own, and both do so simultaneously and continuously.

This is still a no-go. The two powers do not play together in any predictable way. Even the d20 roll-off doesn't work, as it creates a memory mechanic of what the spaces became when figures moved close together, or an annoying d20 roll-off every time a figure needs to check what the space is.
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  #96  
Old October 13th, 2020, 11:42 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Kiora, the Rising Tide - Design

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
IMO the interaction is fine as-is, and the answer is already given to us by the RTS/GIE interaction. RTS turns everything to swamp water, then the GIE turns it into ice, per RTS' R&C. RTS has a constant effect, while GIE's use of "while..." means you have to check the status of the space, then apply the effect if able. Durnipia also uses "while..." so the interactions would be:
  • Spaces within 1 of both RTS and Durnipia are water. RTS turns them into swamp, then Durnipia checks if she's on a land space and if so turns them into water
  • If RTS is within 1 space of Durnipia, she does not change adjacent spaces. RTS changes Durnipia's space to swamp water, then when she checks she is not on a land space and does nothing
Bonus theme: engaging the healer with the vile Marro corrupts her waters with swamp (although it doesn't actually affect her negatively, since figures already don't have to stop in swamp water, and swamp water still counts as water for her healing; on a related note, maybe we can differentiate that by saying "subtract 5 from your roll if the figure is on a swamp water space).
I don't buy it. The "while" on GIE does not have the effect you claim (the GIE-RTS interaction works for other reasons), and and I'm not convinced that a land space adjacent to RTS is not still a "land space."

A land space between RTS and Durnipia is not clear. Both are able to change the other's space types to their own, and both do so simultaneously and continuously.

This is still a no-go. The two powers do not play together in any predictable way. Even the d20 roll-off doesn't work, as it creates a memory mechanic of what the spaces became when figures moved close together, or an annoying d20 roll-off every time a figure needs to check what the space is.
I agree that the current wording in the OP is unclear. That's why I proposed a change that I think should remove any ambiguity between the interactions.

Current Wording:

Quote:
CARRIED BY WAVES
While Kiora is on a land space, that space and all same-level spaces adjacent to Kiora are considered water spaces. Kiora and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Kiora do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.
My new suggested wording:
Quote:
CARRIED BY WAVES
All land spaces within 1 space of Durnipia that are no more than 5 levels above or below Durnipia's base are considered water spaces. Durnipia and friendly figures who start their move adjacent to Durnipia do not have to stop their movement when entering a water space.
Also, just for reference, Re-Tak-Shi's Swamp Ooze ability which I based my suggested wording on:

Quote:
SWAMP OOZE
All land or water spaces within 1 space of Re-Tak-Shi that are no more than 5 levels above or below Re-Tak-Shi's base are considered swamp water spaces.
Since Re-Tak-Shi converts all land or water spaces, but Durnipia only converts land spaces, no matter the order in which their abilities are applied RTS's Ooze will always override Durnipia's Carried By Waves.
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