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  #61  
Old June 17th, 2020, 04:26 AM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous View Post
Here's another option to consider that might better fit the theme of a dragon ally?

Quote:
LOYAL PROTECTOR
Add +1 to the Attack and Defense values of this card [or some other bonus?] if Katryn is adjacent to a friendly wounded unique hero.
I like the idea of Loyal Protector but agree a basic stat boost is boring. What about

Quote:
SACRED GUARDIAN
If Nahiri begins her turn unengaged and adjacent to a friendly unique hero with 1 or more wound markers on its card, Nahiri may make 1 additional attack with her normal attack this turn.
It pairs her with a hero and lets her make multiple attacks to cut through squads. Perhaps a slight move buff to help with getting close enough to use her double attack?
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  #62  
Old June 17th, 2020, 03:35 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Here's a draft I quickly worked up with a few posts from the last page or two:


Karina Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted /Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defense dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.


SACRED GUARDIAN
If Nahiri begins her turn unengaged and adjacent to a friendly unique hero with 1 or more wound markers on its card, Nahiri may make 1 additional attack with her normal attack this turn.


===


I think we can simplify Sacred Guardian but I'm good with having it on a draft so we can start somewhere.
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  #63  
Old June 17th, 2020, 07:12 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
Here's a draft I quickly worked up with a few posts from the last page or two:


Karina Vade, Emperor’s Chosen
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted /Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 5 Attack / 3 Defense

MAJESTIC INFERNO SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
All figures adjacent to Katryn are affected by Majestic Inferno Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Squad figures roll 1 less defense dice against Majestic Inferno Special Attack.


SACRED GUARDIAN
If Nahiri begins her turn unengaged and adjacent to a friendly unique hero with 1 or more wound markers on its card, Nahiri may make 1 additional attack with her normal attack this turn.


===


I think we can simplify Sacred Guardian but I'm good with having it on a draft so we can start somewhere.

While I wouldn't oppose 5 attack, I think the sculpt could easily justify an attack value of 6. That sword is impressive in real life, and I think the higher attack could make the decision of whether or not to use her SA more difficult.

I also know that earlier Astroking (and maybe others?) had suggested basing the special attack off of Jotun's Wild Swing so as to differentiate it more from Ozuul's special attack. That ends up being slightly wordier, but I agree that the change is probably worth the extra words.

While I like the concept of SACRED GUARDIAN, I think that it could use a little more work. It seems odd to me that as currently worded Katryn could start her turn next to a wounded hero, then run away and still get the bonus for Sacred Guardian. I think I'd prefer allowing the ability to trigger as long as she was within 4 clear sight spaces of a friendly wounded unique hero. Also, if we stick with the double attack angle, I'd recommend allowing her to attack again with either her normal or special attack to ensure that her special attack remains relevant.

Here's a couple other directions I like as well:
Quote:
LOYAL PROTECTOR
If Katryn Vade ends her turn adjacent to a friendly unique hero with at least one wound marker on its card, you may immediately take one additional turn with Katryn Vade
Or, for something different:
Quote:
VOW OF VENGEANCE
Whenever a unique hero you control is destroyed, you may place that figure on this army card. After revealing an order marker on this card and taking a turn with Katryn, you may remove a figure from this card to take one additional turn with her.
The same effect could also be accomplished easily with markers if using figures would interact negatively with spirit powers.
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  #64  
Old June 17th, 2020, 07:31 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Anyone else want to chime in with a direction for the second power?
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  #65  
Old June 17th, 2020, 08:35 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Here's my interpretation draft

Quote:
Nahiri
Einar
Icarian / Unique Hero / Warrior / Devoted / Medium 5

5 Life / 5 Move / 1 Range / 6 Attack / 3 Defense

INFERNO BLADE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1. Attack 3.
Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by Inferno Blade Special Attack. Roll attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice separately. Squad figures roll 1 less defence dice against Inferno Blade Special Attack. Nahiri cannot be affected by her own Inferno Blade Special Attack.

Power 2 Name
If Nahiri is within 4 clear sight spaces of a friendly unique hero with at least 1 wound marker on its card and makes a normal attack, Nahiri may attack again with a normal or special attack.
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  #66  
Old June 17th, 2020, 08:38 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Do we officially want to take DRAGONHEART BLADE off the table?

Quote:
DRAGONHEART BLADE
Whenever Katryn would be affected by a special ability or special attack, you may choose to treat her size as Huge instead of Medium.
I know it was somewhat controversial when I first suggested it, but its still my favorite choice for a second power, and I think that opinion was shared by Owlman and possibly @Astroking112 as well? One of the things I really like about it is the way it provides more counterplay within the masterset for abilities like Ozuul's Gravity Pull and Dienekes' Tether of Logos. Judging from playtesting it seems like Tether of Logos will be fairly potent, and providing players with another way besides Ozuul to play around that ability with just the figures in the master set is a good thing.

Aside from that, I like how the ability is somewhat subtle and (to me at least) does a great job of thematically connecting her to Zelrig and the dragons based on my proposed backstory.

However, if the majority would rather see something different, I shan't bring it up again.
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  #67  
Old June 18th, 2020, 04:01 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

I really think that power feels too customy (which I know is an entirely vague and nondescriptive category) and won't have enough application in general, nevermind in the set.

I would like to hear one more round of if people really are into it.
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  #68  
Old June 18th, 2020, 06:47 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King View Post
I really think that power feels too customy (which I know is an entirely vague and nondescriptive category) and won't have enough application in general, nevermind in the set.

I would like to hear one more round of if people really are into it.
While I'm personally okay with it, I can definitely understand how someone might feel that way about it being too "customy." It does straddle the line in terms of what I might consider too "customy" for a VC-worthy unit, even if I ultimately think it falls on the acceptable side of that line.

However, I don't think the relatively limited application is a problem, given that even when it is relevant its effect wouldn't be all that powerful and won't end up contributing much to her overall point cost. I also really don't think that we should underestimate the additional strategic implications that adding another "Huge" figure would have for the use of Gravity Pull, Tether of Logos, and any other size-related abilities that end up in the set. Ultimately I think the ability contributes value to the design more as a fun thematic garnish, rather than something that defines the unit (much like the "steadfast" ability for c3v's Shieldsmiths of Granite Keep, another thematic power that is arguably even less useful than Dragonheart Blade).
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  #69  
Old June 19th, 2020, 12:32 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Jumping in really quick to offer my on Dragonheart Blade:

I think that it really helps in selling the theme that she is channeling the powers of an actual dragon. With just a Special Attack named similarly to Zelrig's but acting slightly different, it evokes him without necessarily making the connection more fully.

I do think that the power itself could be improved with a few changes:
Quote:
DRAGON'S BLOOD
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 4 instead of what is on this card.
That cuts out Special Attacks, which can get really wonky and usually don't depend on size anyway, and limits it specifically to when she is chosen for a Special Power. That means that stuff like Sir Denrick's Giant Killer wouldn't affect her, but she can choose to be immune against things like Braxas' Poisonous Acid Breath. Of course, Scytale would know how to word this far better, but I think that reigning in the scope of the power a fair bit would help ease the almost guaranteed rules issues.

The other change (that I personally think is more important) is to rename the power to help sell the theme. It's nice to give the glowing fire sword a specific name, but Dragonheart Blade doesn't really give any explanation for why Katryn suddenly "becomes huge," which makes the power hard to envision. The power name should more clearly depict her channeling the image of Zelrig or whatever else to justify why she gains those immunities, not just name the blade. Her bio could explain that she received the "_____ Blade" from Zelrig and that's how she got her powers, just like Drake with his magical katana. I think that a better name than Dragon's Blood is in order, but hopefully it gets the idea across well enough.

You could even add "...treat her species as Dragon and her size and height as..." to really nail down the theme (though that does come with the super weird result of making her an eligible Lizard King ).

In terms of this power feeling "custom-y," I don't think that it's any worse than a power saying that a figure can triple their height when climbing. Conditionally changing height is already a thing, so conditionally changing size doesn't seem to break with the spirit of the game to me.

In terms of usefulness, there are enough times that I would want to use this power that I consider it very useful. Many auto-wounding powers include small or medium restrictions, especially in classic HeroScape. Stuff like Engagement Strike, Trample Stomp, Ramming, Knockback, Throw, Talon Grab, and plenty more all lose their effectiveness against Katryn. I actually think that the power is much more useful than many niche defensive powers, since it's effectively giving her Large/Huge immunities. It won't matter in every game, but it'll definitely matter enough times to be noticed.

Now, in our set, that's currently just Ozuul, Dienekes, and (maybe) Vlad. That means that there will be games with just these characters where the large/huge immunities of Ozuul and the Ukushisa Pride matter, but they are the only figures with those immunities currently. Captain Stupendous already did an excellent job of outlining why that can be seen as a benefit rather than as a negative, so I won't repeat that argument.

...In hindsight, that wasn't very quick at all. My apologies for the long post--I sat down intending only to respond to my ping. Personally, I would suggest pinging the rest of the pod and seeing how they feel about the second power.
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  #70  
Old June 19th, 2020, 02:06 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

After spending a lot of time deliberating on this (sorry, this is a chaotic time for essential workers :$ ), I’m up for the huge Katryn power. There will be times when it comes into play, and it gives her a niche secondary power that doesn’t feel like it requires too much effort to find a use for. I like the name of Dragon’s Blood.

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  #71  
Old June 21st, 2020, 02:26 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Thanks for the input, @Astroking112 ! @Confred , @Amarant , @Zetsubo care to weigh in with your thoughts on this as a 2nd power?

Quote:
DRAGON'S BLOOD
Whenever Katryn is chosen for a special power, you may treat her size and height as Huge 4 instead of what is on this card.
I also think the name could be workshopped some more. While I like the name Dragonheart Blade, I understand how it's confusing and relies on the connection to the bio too much to get the intended theme across. I think DRAGON'S BLOOD could work, although again, without reading the bio it sounds like Katryn is descended from a dragon or something. I think I'd prefer DRAGON'S BLESSING as the name for the 2nd power.
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  #72  
Old June 22nd, 2020, 02:43 PM
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Re: [Pod 2] Nahiri, Fury in Stone

Alright, Astro actually has convinced me - but I'd want it to be a third power. We're avoiding three powers in the set, but I think here it's justified since the impact is so small.
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