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  #1  
Old January 30th, 2017, 01:58 PM
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Dice Validity/Etiquette

Yesterday we had a friendly argument about dice roll validity. While we've always leaned towards forgiving attitudes when it comes to dice rolls (and the game in general), I do like to have a set of rules on what is valid and what should be re-rolled.

Now, this was the second gaming session in a row where we had some (friendly) argument. The first time was in allowing dice rolls after the initial roll. Let's cover this first.

The situation was that someone rolled attack dice, the defender rolled defense dice, and it was determined that not enough skulls were rolled to inflict wound/destroy figure. The next person was about to take a turn, but had not yet. It was at that point that the attacker realized through bonus that they should get another die. It was allowed, a skull was rolled, and the figure was destroyed. A couple folks in the group did not like this and figured since it was already determined that the figure should live and the next player was about to take a turn, that it shouldn't have been allowed.

This happens frequently (at least in our groups) that bonuses aren't noticed until after the dice have left your hand. We maintain a friendly and casual feel to the game (we're playing for fun after all), so we have always allowed this. If allowed, it becomes a gray area of how long afterwards is it allowed. To keep the gray area more black and white, we have allowed it up to the point that more information becomes available. Meaning, in this case, if the next player had revealed his order marker, the bonus could no longer be applied. Or in another example, if the player had multiple attacks, once dice were rolled for a subsequent attack, the previous attack could no longer have anything "fixed".

So first question is:
1) Do you allow added dice after the initial roll was made?

I'm comfortable with the way we handle that one. I think our "fixes can happen until more info is revealed" keeps it casual yet provides boundaries. I'm more curious in opinions on what happened yesterday.

Yesterday we had the case where I actually rolled one too many attack dice. The answer was simple to me, I pick up all my dice and reroll the correct number of them. The defender, however, picked up his dice. If it's a reroll, he figured, he should reroll his dice too. I argued that the attack dice and defense dice are completely disjoint of each other. My misroll has no effect on his roll, why should he reroll his dice?

As we argued about it, more things came up. What happens if a die falls to the floor or one die is crooked, should ALL dice be rerolled? We have only ever rerolled the one bad die. Should all attack dice be rerolled? Should defense dice be rerolled too?

I put on my crown and took over as house ruler, stating that any valid dice stay down on the table. Being my friends, they were probably halfways just enjoying arguing with me, but I can, at least slightly, understand their position on it. One error in dice could mean rerolling EVERYTHING, just to completely reset the table. Of course if we go by that rule, when I see my opponent drop 3/3 shields, I may just throw an extra attack die "by accident".

2) When presented with a bad die (crooked or off table), how do you handle it?
3) When rolling too many dice, how do you handle it?

Thanks for any opinions shared.

Last edited by bmon; January 30th, 2017 at 02:02 PM. Reason: auto sensor didn't let me use another, yet innocent, expression for crooked
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  #2  
Old January 30th, 2017, 02:25 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

1. We play pretty casual so we usually allow the roll of any forgotten bonus dice. It's also bad form if you realize that someone is missing a bonus and you don't say anything. If the phase is over...second attack started or next OM revealed...SOL, you move on. Just as you did it.

2. We re-roll only the bad die.

3. First, we have had situations where too many were rolled but it was still a bad roll so we give the other party the option of NOT forcing a re-roll. (ie I rolled 5 dice instead of 4 dice but only got 1 skull, and my opponent rolled 2 shields...he has the option to accept the roll as is and not have a re-roll of the attack dice.)

Second, If I would have rolled all the dice the same (5 skulls out of 5 dice) we usually just remove the one extra and call it 4 out of 4...though there was an issue ONCE but as I said we are pretty casual.

Third, if there is a re-roll ONLY the side that has made the error rolls. (If I rolled 5 instead of 4 attack and had 3 skulls and my opponent rolled 2 shields, he would have me roll my attack again. He would keep his defense roll as is. He also can't use any power, such as a few C3G powers that allow the reveal of the X to add one additional Skull unless he chose to do so for the initial roll. The reason that rule came about was due to a situation where since the defense roll was locked the attacker would know if he'd have a sure shot with the X burn instead of the risk it would have been the first time.

That's how we handle it. Usually. Probably a good idea to get some house rules down so it doesn't become an issue. Good post.

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Old January 30th, 2017, 03:20 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

Agreed on first and second points. To the third point: I usually play that the opposing player has a choice. He can force a straight reroll, or remove the excess number of the desired result. For example, if you rolled 3 out of 5 skulls but were only supposed to roll 4 dice, your opponent can defend against 2, or ask you to reroll. Either way, if the defender had already rolled his dice, that result would stand.
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Old January 30th, 2017, 03:33 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

First, I allow infinite fixes until the next player start their turn. I will allow 1 fix per player per game after another player took their turn - even the next round if it doesn't affect the game too much. i.e. one grace - then it is on you to remmeber. The biggest example of this is with Nakita Agent's Engagement Strike - if you take your hand off a figure next to one and forget about engagement strike you get one warning, but the next time the 20-sided die is rolled immediately after your hand goes off the figure without warning.

1. If you roll too few dice, just roll extra.
2. Always reroll off-table or crooked, even if only 10% (get a better surface next time).
3. If you roll too many dice, re-roll the dice that showed what you wanted. I.E. if you roll 5 defense dice when you were supposed to roll 3, and 3 of them show shields, you take 2 of the ones with shields and re-roll. Makes it harder on you to get the same if you messed up, but you don't have to re-roll all of them.

Last edited by lefton4ya; January 30th, 2017 at 04:08 PM.
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  #5  
Old January 30th, 2017, 03:49 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

I handle it similarly. As long as the game did not progress further (OM revealed etc) I allow a reroll if a mistake was made. If too many dice were rolled, the other player should decide if he wants the opponent to reroll or not, if too few were rolled, sure throw in another die. For crooked dice, we have a general consensus and majority rules (same with LOS). But for even arguments, or for situations that warrant a judgement call, I "put on the house rules hat" and make the determination as fairly as I can, keeping in mind the rules. As for "on the floor" dice, I decided for my group that we would always reroll any die that did not make it into the dice bowl. So from now on, everyone knows what to expect.

Regardless of what you decide...BE CONSISTENT. A couple of times I have not been consistent with rules and it is not good. Make sure that people understand where you stand on gray area and judgment calls, and then stick to that principle each time. Even if they don't like it, they'll appreciate your consistent enforcement of the rule each time it comes up.

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Old January 30th, 2017, 03:52 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

1) Just ask the opponent. In my experience, scapers tend to be pretty chill. It's part of what makes us "better" than lots of other competitive crowds. If I'm playing a stranger, I will say, "my fault, I forgot to roll for height bonus. OK if I roll the extra die now?" I generally expect, but don't assume, that the opponent will say its fine. Revealing the OM isn't necessarily a hard boundary, but it would be bad form to ask ask the opponent to allow the extra dice well beyond when the mistake was made. I've semi-regularly seen moves opponents made rewound (with their permission of course) at Gencon to allow an extra die to be rolled and factored in if time isn't an issue. The opponent, like most of us, is being gracious. However, if you keep making the mistake, YOU are being the jerk for continually forgetting and asking for the correction, not the opponent for eventually saying, "no."

2) Whatever your group decides is fine, just make sure everyone is on the same page. My personal preference is to 1) reroll only dice that left the playing surface (having a die go out of view and being counted feels wrong), and 2) cocked-dice count if which side is top is clearly discernible (speeds things up). I suspect #1 is pretty uncontroversial, and #2 more controversial because it could be abused by some and lead to arguments. If that starts happening in your group, then switch to all cocked dice are rerolled unless both opponents agree to let it stand. Either way, I can't think of any good reason to reroll all dice if only one fell provided players aren't trying to crash the reroll die into the already rolled dice to change their outcome.

3) If you rolled too many dice, leave what gets rerolled up to the opponent. As an opponent, how I would handle it: if you rolled one too many and rolled (for example) 4 skulls against me and 3 would have been enough to kill me, I will just say that you would have killed me either way and not bother with asking for a reroll. However, if you keep rolling too many attack dice, I would be less gracious and wonder if you're trying to sneak something by me and ask you to reroll them all if you would be dealing me damage that way (in theory--I've never detected someone knowingly trying to do this). No matter the situation--if you rolled too many and I blocked, I would say it should stand as-is--your error doesn't give you a second chance to reroll. Finally, I'd never think rerolling my blocking dice is called for unless we're in that land I just theorized above where someone is deliberately rolling too many (you're trying to get extra chances to roll good attacks by rerolling everything, so using the "I, the opponent, decide," rule I will respond by rerolling a bad block roll)

The above doesn't necessarily cover the related optional bonus, ability, etc rolls. Those feel a bit more like "you snooze you lose" territory. If you forget something like that couple of times, I'll let you do it, regardless the circumstances. But if you keep forgetting, and the game is close, it is your responsibility, not mine, to stop yourself from making those errors.

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Last edited by Xorlof; January 30th, 2017 at 04:15 PM. Reason: regarding that last sentence--I may still let you reroll anyway 'cuz I don't want to win that way, but c'mon...
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Old January 30th, 2017, 04:19 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xorlof View Post
1) Just ask the opponent. In my experience, scapers tend to be pretty chill. It's part of what makes us "better" than lots of other competitive crowds. If I'm playing a stranger, I will say, "my fault, I forgot to roll for height bonus. OK if I roll the extra die now?" I generally expect, but don't assume, that the opponent will say its fine. Revealing the OM isn't necessarily a hard boundary, but it would be bad form to ask ask the opponent to allow the extra dice well beyond when the mistake was made. I've semi-regularly seen moves opponents made rewound (with their permission of course) at Gencon to allow an extra die to be rolled and factored in if time isn't an issue. The opponent, like most of us, is being gracious. However, if you keep making the mistake, YOU are being the jerk for continually forgetting and asking for the correction, not the opponent for eventually saying, "no."

2) Whatever your group decides is fine, just make sure everyone is on the same page. My personal preference is to 1) reroll only dice that left the playing surface (having a die go out of view and being counted feels wrong), and 2) cocked-dice count if which side is top is clearly discernible (speeds things up). I suspect #1 is pretty uncontroversial, and #2 more controversial because it could be abused by some and lead to arguments. If that starts happening in your group, then switch to all cocked dice are rerolled unless both opponents agree to let it stand. Either way, I can't think of any good reason to reroll all dice if only one fell provided players aren't trying to crash the reroll die into the already rolled dice to change their outcome.

3) If you rolled too many dice, leave what gets rerolled up to the opponent. As an opponent, how I would handle it: if you rolled one too many and rolled (for example) 4 skulls against me and 3 would have been enough to kill me, I will just say that you would have killed me either way and not bother with asking for a reroll. However, if you keep rolling too many attack dice, I would be less gracious and wonder if you're trying to sneak something by me and ask you to reroll them all if you would be dealing me damage that way (in theory--I've never detected someone knowingly trying to do this). No matter the situation--if you rolled too many and I blocked, I would say it should stand as-is--your error doesn't give you a second chance to reroll. Finally, I'd never think rerolling my blocking dice is called for unless we're in that land I just theorized above where someone is deliberately rolling too many (you're trying to get extra chances to roll good attacks by rerolling everything, so using the "I, the opponent, decide," rule I will respond by rerolling a bad block roll)

The above doesn't necessarily cover the related optional bonus, ability, etc rolls. Those feel a bit more like "you snooze you lose" territory. If you forget something like that couple of times, I'll let you do it, regardless the circumstances. But if you keep forgetting, and the game is close, it is your responsibility, not mine, to stop yourself from making those errors.
Sounds about the same as we play.

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Old January 30th, 2017, 04:59 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

My only issue is with people who roll one die at a time.
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Old January 30th, 2017, 05:30 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

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Originally Posted by Agent Minivann View Post
My only issue is with people who roll one die at a time.
very annoying indeed. My son did it for the first time yesterday. Ended up rolling 4 blanks out of 4...it was hilarious.

Would I want it to be everything I love...sure...but that's just not realistic so I'm going to focus on finding things that will make me unhappy and work on fixing those.
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Old January 31st, 2017, 01:01 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

1) It is a rule in Heroscape that you must attack with all your attack dice and defend with all of your defense dice, so I see it as the responsibility of all players to point out when a bonus is missed. This is handled by just rolling whatever extra dice are required and keeping all other dice the same. How far we go back to correct is a little more subjective. I'd say it comes down to how easily the game state could be reversed. If information like OMs has been revealed, I'd say it's probably too late.

2) We reroll only the die that fell and reroll all cocked dice. For combat dice, especially if you rolled on the hexes themselves, they can still be pretty clear what they are so I wouldn't make a stink about it. d20s are a different story.

3) Usually we defer to the opponent whether or not they should reroll, regardless of the value of the dice. In that case, you reroll all of the dice involved. If someone rolled all skulls or all shields, I do think it would be fair to just remove however many of them.

As an additional note, for speed of play I don't usually roll defense dice if my opponent would kill me anyway.
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Old January 31st, 2017, 01:18 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Minivann View Post
My only issue is with people who roll one die at a time.
very annoying indeed. My son did it for the first time yesterday. Ended up rolling 4 blanks out of 4...it was hilarious.
Jimmyrolling, as it has been called on this forum.

(I just referenced an obscure 4.5 year old post. I'm starting to feel old).
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Old January 31st, 2017, 01:43 PM
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Re: Dice Validity/Etiquette

If an attacker rolls 3 attack dice, and the defender rolls 2 defense dice and blocks all swords, and then the attacker realizes he should have rolled a 4th attack die, then the attacker will - in my experience - always be permitted to roll that 4th die. I recognize that there is a certain type of board gamer who would say 'no,' but I would prefer not play games with that person. Not just Heroscape, but any game.

As for the other questions, in my house we always reroll dice that went on the floor. I think that's pretty common. As for "cocked," if it's truly uneven then we will reroll. If it's just-barely not flat, but it's obviously settled on one side, then that's what it is.

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