C3G Requests for Reevaluation

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by Yodaking

With Crow getting wrapped up is Strange up next or is there another card we need to deal with first?

Yeah, Strange is the next agenda item. With Crow in the bag, we've wrapped up the original slate of designs identified by the CRB as needing reeval. Which is actually a pretty big accomplishment - we're on to tackling design space issues and maybe underpowered units rather than just the crazy OP units.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by Ronin

The card's boring now. It's just also terrible to play against and hurts design space in an aggressively unthematic way. If we can make him just boring, that's a pretty big step forward.

I agree with the sentiment here, boring but not broken is better than boring and broken, and Sorcerer Supreme doesn't do anything of any interest as it stands. Either the other guy has no MD figures and it does nothing, or he does and then it just made the game even more boring by turning off a bunch of other powers. Though admittedly I might be a bit biased here as I don't feel hard counter powers like the current Sorcerer Supreme have any place in the game in the first place.

However, I also agree with this:

Originally Posted by quozl

Totally disagree with you all. Eye of Agamatto is a very fun power.

Yeah, Eye of Agamatto is a pretty sweet power against anything where he can get to the dude holding the OMs, and gives him a lot of soft counter ability against a number of figures. It's not like solid stats and Magical Defense are terrible either, and now with spells he has access to a whole area of the game that 90% of figures can't get to (also minor bonuses for being wise!). Really, I think the only problem with his other powers and stats is that Sorcerer Supreme being there makes it seem like you have to draft him as a counter-draft to earn his value, but you absolutely don't.

Originally Posted by Ronin

EDIT TWO: I should clarify again that my ultimate preference is for a very short, streamlined version of the power that gives him a leg up on other MD units without passively negating them entirely. Ideally something that would keep him pretty close to 300 after retesting. But removing the power entirely seems like a viable alternative to me.

My preferences are either (in no particular order):

• Change Sorcerer Supreme to a minorish 'ribbon' ability against MD figures that is short enough to be a 'keyword' power without restricting future design space for future figures that would need to have it. The 'can't cast spells' version or the like.
• Change the power to something less aggressively 'f you for existing' but still 'useful' like Lazy's X OM thing or whatever (I don't really care about the specifics), but also change the power's name ('Master of the Mystic Arts' or something) so that future designs that hold the rank of Sorcerer Supreme aren't all stuck with 'anti-Wizard Wizard' taking up 2/3rds of their text space.
• Ditch the power completely.

[Qualizium]

How about striking the current Sorcerer Supreme power and replacing it with something that retains some of the flavor while making him a softer and less frustrating counter to other MD figures?

Something simple like an automatic skull/shield when attacking/defending against a figure with Magical Defense?

Just my two cents.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

Here are some suggestions that I've culled from the convo. I'd like to see where people weigh in.

Option 1

SORCERER SUPREME
Opponents' figures that have the Magical Defense special power and are within 2 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange or start their turn within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange, may not use any special power on their Army Cards. Figures with a Wise personality are not affected by Sorcerer Supreme.

Option 2

SORCERER SUPREME
Opponents' figures that have the Magical Defense special power and are within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange or start their turn within 2 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange, may not use any special power on their Army Cards. Figures with a Wise personality are not affected by Sorcerer Supreme.

Option 3

SORCERER SUPREME
Opponents' figures that have the Magical Defense special power and are within 2 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange or start their turn within 2 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange, may not use any special power on their Army Cards. Figures with a Wise personality are not affected by Sorcerer Supreme.

Option 4

SORCERER SUPREME
Immediately after any numbered Order Marker is revealed, you may reveal an 'X' Order Marker on this card. All opponents Unique Heroes that have the Magical Defense special power and are within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange when you reveal the 'X' Order Marker may not use any special power on their Army Cards until another numbered Order Marker is revealed. Figures with a Wise personality are not affected by Sorcerer Supreme.

Option 5

SORCERER SUPREME
If Doctor Strange is not engaged, opponents' figures that have the Magical Defense special power and are within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange or start their turn within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange, may not use any special power on their Army Cards. Figures with a Wise personality are not affected by Sorcerer Supreme.

Option 6

SORCERER SUPREME
If Doctor Strange is not engaged, opponents' figures that have the Magical Defense special power and are within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange or start their turn within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange, may not use any special power on their Army Cards. Figures with a Wise personality are not affected by Sorcerer Supreme.

Option 7

SORCERER SUPREME
If Doctor Strange is not engaged, opponents' figures that have the Magical Defense special power and are within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange or start their turn within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange, may not use any special power on their Army Cards. Figures with a Wise personality are not affected by Sorcerer Supreme.

Option 8
Drop Sorcerer Supreme from the card altogether, since its initial playtest and subsequent tests lacked him countering or even facing a Magical Defense figure.

Option Z
Some amalgamation of some of these*

(i.e. SORCERER SUPREME
If Doctor Strange is not engaged, opponents' figures that have the Magical Defense special power and are within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange or start their turn within 3 clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange, may not use any special power on their Army Cards. You may reveal an 'X' Order Marker on this card to Immediately extend the range of this power to 3 and counter any engaged figures with Magical Defense. Figures with a Wise personality are not affected by Sorcerer Supreme.

*Not a real suggestion at this time, just an example/place holder.

[japes]

For me the main issue is the "within X clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange or start their turn within X clear sight spaces of Doctor Strange" If it were not both I think it's workable and could probably even be extended beyond the 3 with out a huge issue. It's the fact that you can't get away from it since if you start too close it takes 2 OM and a hope that he doesn't chase you to even get a chance at doing anything since if you move and then he moves the next turn you are right back in the loop of starting your turn too close.

I never had an issue with Dr. Strange in our games but that is because I either accidentally (or intentionally and just didn't remember doing it) left off the "or starts their turn..." portion of the power off of my original rectangle cards. It wasn't until all this talk started that I even realized I copied the text wrong.

But now seeing the options I would have an issue with the engaged counter either.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

Option 6

This looks most appealing to me out of those options.

[laughing matter]

Originally Posted by Spidey'tilIDie

Option 4

This is my preferred option.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by Ronin

This looks most appealing to me out of those options.

I agree.

[quozl]

It would be nice to have ALL the options presented, like dropping Sorcerer Supreme entirely from this card.

[Hahma]

Originally Posted by quozl

Totally disagree with you all. Eye of Agamatto is a very fun power.

Anyway, if you want to design a new power, do so, but do it on a different card.

EoA can be a fun power, but it often depends on who is in your opponent's army. It may not be so fun against units with really high defense, or that can ignore wounds or that have a counterstrike power etc. The opponent can also use synergies units to tie him up, so he'd be engaged with an enemy figure that doesn't have any OM's on its card. Or a units can use its last OM to get engaged with him and attack him.

There are plenty of counters that might make EoA not so fun.

Has everyone looked at the effects of totally removing SS would be against other units with MD?

Mordo wants DS to attack him, pretty decent chance Mordo will be able to take control of DS.

Scarlet Witch, aside from her Chaos Markers that could make him roll to see if he can even us EoA, would force DS to reroll skulls when he does attack her, if all she rolls is a 5+.

Brother Voodoo can take control of DS on an 8+

Sorcerer Doom can get an attack and defense of 7 vs. DS, as well as having a chance to take control of him.

Selene can do some nasty things to him. As she has a huge attack of 7 on him, and can have a chance to give auto wounds if she has wounds and is adjacent.

Just something to think about here, as EoA is useful sometimes, depending on the unit he's attacking, as mentioned above. But then w/o SS, it seems like all other MD units gain and he loses everything against them. I don't have a horse in the race here, I was trying to look at things from different angles.

[Spidey'tilIDie]

@quozl Ask and you shall receive! My apologies for leaving it off.
@Hahma That is a great argument to keep it in some semblance on the card. I initially thought dropping it would be the easiest fix, but those unthematic interactions don't seem much better to me.

[quozl]

I still like Option 8 as this would be a rookie Dr. Strange, before he became Sorcerer Supreme.