Magic: the Gathering Strategy Board Game

[quozl]

Originally Posted by Colorcrayons

I'm already seeing a couple forums for Arena of the Planeswalkers pop up.

Please share.

[Johngee]

Originally Posted by Grishnakh

You know, I honestly don't know what to make of this. I'm just not a fan of Magic the Gathering. The mere thought of taking story lines and elements of that CCC and somehow merging it with elements of the Heroscape rules kinda leaves me cold. It's not going to be the same game that's for sure. A strange sort of hybrid maybe. At least with D&D they placed that squarely into the Heroscape game. I could live with that. This is a different beast entirely. I'll wait and see before I get too bent out of shape excited over it.

Hi guys, my name is John G. and I'm a HeroScape addict, but I've heard about this new game by the giant megatoypolis company THE HasBORG and their subservient subsidiary Whot-[duyu]-See that looks interesting. I've been following various news threads and even watched a few videos on the topic. My favorite is from The Dice Tower in which Tom Vassel enthusiastically compares "Magic the Gathering: Arena of the Plainswalkers" to our beloved "HeroScape" and wholeheartedly endorses it as "...very much like HeroScape." That just left me a little suspicious about who stuffed his pockets with a share of loot.

Anyway, although I frequent this site very often, but I don't always go looking for NEW discussions buried within the Forum pages. Just this morning I discovered this Thread that began back in October of last year with lots and lots of speculative blather. After reading 15 pages of that and I decided to jump to the last 3 of 68 pages to find out what was being discussed TODAY. Voila, now I am here to participate in the conversation if you don't mind another being thrown into the arena [pun intended].


I completely agree with a lot that's been said on both sides of these coins. I too have been disappointed by the demise of HeroScape and the debacles of Marvel-scape, D&D-Scape, Battleship Galaxies - as examples of games with great potential gone awry because of poor Marketing Strategies by the suited corporate bean-counters, who pander more to the stockholders' greedy desires than the wishes of the gaming customers. But this is a capitalistic system we live in and the success of a product's longevity is dependent upon the revenue that it generates. In the long run, it boils down to pure Economics no matter how much we whine and complain. In particular...

Originally Posted by Aldin

<~snip/snip~>
Scapers are pretty wide-ranging, you know. The amount of male diversity on this board is impressive ...


I rather suspect that there's a fair bit of diversity in MtG players as well. ...


So the idea that there are significant groups of people who might want to try this seems obvious to me just based on the existing fans of the two worlds getting married here. And that doesn't even begin to take a stab at what I think is the real target audience. I think the real target audience is folks who play "light" games and are curious about MtG but aren't willing to try to get past the entry barrier into a long running game with thousands of long-time players.

I think they want to get students playing. I think they want to get gamers who feel like they missed out on the MtG experience or that it is too expensive a hobby. I think this is an entry drug for the curious.
<~snip/snip~>
~Aldin, with fingers crossed

I think @Aldin has really nailed it with his analysis of the "targeted audience." Hasbro/WotC manufacture TOYS and are in business TO MAKE MONEY, not for the purpose of pleasing HerosacpeRs or even for the sake of designing, producing and distributing FUN enhancing products. The motto in the executive suite is: "If it don't make dollars, then it don't make sense." And let us not forget that aspect.


Yes, MtG:AotP is fairly compatible with HS or can be customized to accommodate some cross-pollination. I initially felt that I would have to RELUCTANTLY purchase and learn this new game simply because many of my HS friends would be jumping on the bandwagon just as they did with BSG, Summoner Wars, and Mage Wars, etc. Besides, five new heroes and several squads of commons for the C3V team to play with is just too much temptation not to have custom cards produced in the near future. Especially since I still sitting on an unopened box of D&D Dungeon Command: Blood of Gruumsh and an HeroClix Jonah Hex figure, which I never would have bought unless there had been the promise of an HS Stat Card to eventually be released.


Those of us who purchased the D&D HeroScape Waves will remember the little flyers in each package advertising the D&D games. in their desperation to find new customers, maybe they were expecting us to abandon HS for their other cash cow. I suspect that a similar motivation is behind the release of AotP. It not to entice the serious, hardcore MtG or HS junkies completely away from their narcotic of choice, but they will attract many of the curious onlookers from both genres.


I don't mind that the commons are translucent. They remind me of air, fire, and water elementals. I'm imagining these five Plainswalkers as becoming similar to Kurrock the Elemenatlist, with a limited ability to only summon those squads of creatures with whom it has an allegiance (i.e. following the same General). WE will have practically a whole new Wave of C3V units all in one box for the low price of $30. However, one hint that Hasbro/WotC have already screwed this up is the fact that the Common Squads are all UNIQUE, aarrrgh! There is absolutely *NO* reason for a buyer of this new game to ever want more than ONE Starter Set, if they are going to play by those rules in that universe. Where's the profitability in that ($) in that? Duh! Except along the geeks like us who won't color inside the lines and plan massive 1,000 point table top battles.


FINALLY: My one suggestion for this community - if you have any hope of ever seeing HeroScape revived - is for all of us to buy this new MtG: AotP product now (even if only for the potential customized figures down the road) to make their initial production run very successful. BUT THEN for every one of us to also make a solemn vow to flood their web site with reviews, session-reports, and PHOTOS of their figures being played on OUR 3D Terrain. That I think will arouse the curiosity of all those NEWBIES more than anything and THEY will be clamoring for more terrain tiles, which will push the eBay prices even higher for those of us who want to sell out our over-stock when the market is at it's peak.


That's all for now folks. I pray that all is well with you and yours. Have A Nic eDay; - D
~ Johngee
(O)ver & (O)ut

[Sherman Davies]

Originally Posted by Johngee

My one suggestion for this community - if you have any hope of ever seeing HeroScape revived - is for all of us to buy this new MtG: AotP product now (even if only for the potential customized figures down the road) to make their initial production run very successful.

Sales of Magic: AotP will not bring back Heroscape as we know it. Yes, Heroscape was cancelled in part due to marketing mistakes by Hasbro, but also because of larger economic shifts Hasbro had no control over, like skyrocketing oil prices, a global recession and rising foreign labor costs. Heroscape, with its affordable prepainted plastic figures and terrain, came along at pretty much the only point in history it could have, and instead of moaning about it being gone we should be thankful we got it in the first place.

[Cleon]

I don't know guys, this still just screams to me 'go check out Magic the Gathering all you miniatures players.' This is a product to get more people into Magic, that happens to use the Heroscape engine because it's a great engine and Wizards owns it.

WotC is not the nicest company in the gaming world, and they really only care about two games - Magic and D&D. They are known for getting the rights to a game and shortly after discontinuing it. If they wanted Heroscape to continue and expand and flourish they wouldn't have cheaply used already existing D&D minis for Heroscape's last expansions and then axed it. If they wanted to bring Heroscape back then they'd simply bring it back.

Call me negative or whatever, but a lot of you guys are over-positive. This is not to get people interested in Heroscape (although it might ironically), it's to get even more people into Magic. As I've frequently heard, a lot of the people trying this game have never heard of Heroscape. And Wizards definitely hasn't advertised it was based off it.

As far as the sub forum debate....I don't know. It's a different game that isn't a Heroscape product, but it's virtually an alternative Heroscape game with the Magic theme (from what I can tell). I could see it go either way. I'd say if it's a stand alone game, it belongs in the Other Games forums. If it does get bigger and have expansions, the question is more relevant.

Also I'm not trying to protest this product and tell those that are interested not to purchase it. If you're hungry for more Heroscape-esq things and don't mind it being Magic/WotC, then be my guest. I personally mind it; I really don't care for Magic (and dislike Wizards). Just giving my on it.

[mac122]

Originally Posted by Cleon

As far as the sub forum debate....I don't know. It's a different game that isn't a Heroscape product, but it's virtually an alternative Heroscape game with the Magic theme (from what I can tell). I could see it go either way. If it's a stand alone game, it belongs in the Other Games forums. If it does get bigger and have expansions, the question is more relevant.

If this becomes the next Battleship Galaxies, a separate sub-forum would be a waste. However, if they do release expansions, a sub-forum for discussions about customizing Scape figures for AotP and AotP figures for Scape would be a great addition to the site, IMO.

[chas]

Controversy! Old folks checking in for the first time in forever! New opportunites for customization!

Exactly the point!

[Grishnakh]

After several years, 44,441 threads, and 2,003,738 posts, all about Heroscape and customizing Heroscape, I just find it interesting that most of you want to jump on the Hasbro Band Wagon and start waving the Magic the Gathering flag so quickly. Some of you before you've even played the game. This community goes to great lengths to create new material and play test that new material. We're quick to point out flaws in customs, and even quicker to help out those who are trying to do customs for the first time. In a sense we police ourselves.

Now, do any of you really, honestly think that Hasbro created this Magic game for the Heroscape community.

I'm not privy to the inner schemes of Hasbro but if they really wanted to create more Heroscape they could. They own the rights to the game.

But I still don't see how this is considered by some of you to be Heroscape. And I'll keep that stance until someone shows me where on the MtG box it says that this new game is 100% compatible with Heroscape. Otherwise, to play it with Heroscape you honestly have to customize it.

The whole point of my posts were simply this: What level of importance does this community place on this new product as it pertains to our game and this site.

Not withstanding the sarcastic posts, this is exactly the discussion we really need to be having.

And I don't care for gut feelings here. Some, if not most, of you feel we should very quickly elevate it to be equal to Heroscape, and excepted into this community. Even if it is not an official Heroscape product.

Others, such as myself, feel that maybe we should explore it but maybe not place so much importance on it. When I hear things like "evolving" and "Heroscape 2.0" it honestly makes me step back and pause. That just doesn't seem to be in the same spirit as the last 2,003,738 posts.

I absolutely understand I'm in the minority here. But I have a feeling that some might share my opinion.

Again, by all means let's explore this a bit more. But I'm going to proceed a lot slower than some of you are with these proclamations that this is the new way to play Heroscape.

[Grishnakh]

Originally Posted by Cleon

As far as the sub forum debate....I don't know. It's a different game that isn't a Heroscape product, but it's virtually an alternative Heroscape game with the Magic theme (from what I can tell). I could see it go either way. I'd say if it's a stand alone game, it belongs in the Other Games forums. If it does get bigger and have expansions, the question is more relevant.

Thank you Cleon.

[Dad_Scaper]

I don't see my own interest in this game, and its close relationship to Heroscape, as any kind of banner-swapping. I also - and this goes for Cleon, too - don't care about Wizards of the Coast or their target audience. I look at this game, and I see Heroscape 2.0. And I see interest among some of us here in this community.

If the game isn't supported, or if people don't post in some new subforum, that's fine. Nothing lost. But it's not outside the realm of possibility that this game will have some legs, and will attract some interest in our community. So why not have a space to discuss it? Then it won't be intermingled with everything else, for all you purists out there. And if people don't use a new subforum, that's fine. It'll sit there, more-or-less empty, until something is done with it. We have a few subforums like that inside the C3V, and they don't bother anybody.

[quozl]

Originally Posted by Grishnakh

to play it with Heroscape you honestly have to customize it.

As my link showed, that's absolutely not true.

[Grungebob]

Originally Posted by Cleon

I don't know guys, this still just screams to me 'go check out Magic the Gathering all you miniatures players.' This is a product to get more people into Magic, that happens to use the Heroscape engine because it's a great engine and Wizards owns it.

WotC is not the nicest company in the gaming world, and they really only care about two games - Magic and D&D. They are known for getting the rights to a game and shortly after discontinuing it. If they wanted Heroscape to continue and expand and flourish they wouldn't have cheaply used already existing D&D minis for Heroscape's last expansions and then axed it. If they wanted to bring Heroscape back then they'd simply bring it back.

Call me negative or whatever, but a lot of you guys are over-positive. This is not to get people interested in Heroscape (although it might ironically), it's to get even more people into Magic. As I've frequently heard, a lot of the people trying this game have never heard of Heroscape. And Wizards definitely hasn't advertised it was based off it.

As far as the sub forum debate....I don't know. It's a different game that isn't a Heroscape product, but it's virtually an alternative Heroscape game with the Magic theme (from what I can tell). I could see it go either way. I'd say if it's a stand alone game, it belongs in the Other Games forums. If it does get bigger and have expansions, the question is more relevant.

Also I'm not trying to protest this product and tell those that are interested not to purchase it. If you're hungry for more Heroscape-esq things and don't mind it being Magic/WotC, then be my guest. I personally mind it; I really don't care for Magic (and dislike Wizards). Just giving my on it.

Incorrect and speculative. The brand is most likely used as a way to increase sales of THIS PRODUCT! To help insure that it will have strong enough sales to support it.

[Aldin]

Originally Posted by Grishnakh

Some, if not most, of you feel we should very quickly elevate it to be equal to Heroscape

I think the very most anyone is advocating for is to quickly elevate to be the equal of Heroscape customs.

If CVN showed up a year ago with a custom project to make planeswalkers and include a small hand of cards in addition to the armies we'd have easily given that project the same kind of status we give C3G, which, by any other name IS the Marvel Legends HeroScape section at this point.

So is CVN's MtG "custom" worth talking about here? Sure. No matter how you slice it, it deserves a spot at the table. The only real question in my mind is "where here does it belong"?

I think the breadth of discussion that will happen is too great to justify it as a sub-sub-sub-sub forum of Off-Topic->Other Games->Other Board Games. So it doesn't really fit in the "natural" place that discussion of any other board game might go.

It's not Official, it's not technically a Custom, it certainly isn't Marvel and it's a bad fit for Community. Which, if we fit it in the existing structure, either makes it a sub sub under Other Games or a sub under Off Topic which would then have these four displayed: Other Games, Other Media, General, MtG:AotP. Frankly, that seems like a bad fit to me as well.

The place it makes the most sense to me is as a major header somewhere between Marvel and Off-Topic (not sure if I like it better above or below Community).

Now all of this assumes that we want to create a space to discuss the game here. I'd like to think that this thread, the one about customs I saw and potentially others I've missed justifies at least that level of need.

Respectfully,

~Aldin, space planner