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  #229  
Old July 24th, 2015, 12:33 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

But, for the record, I personally find the First Aid kit very draftable still (IF your D20 is being reliable, life points on Batman are worth a lot more than on a normal character) and we have tons and tons of designs that are just Unique Heroes that plenty of folks consider undraftable, so there's going to be some of that regardless. Not every glyph power has to be perfectly balanced or equally draftable in every scenario and or even in competitive play in general. Some will inevitably be suboptimal, but (if done well) will still be worthwhile enough that those interested in the theme will be willing to chase them down.

A better example you could've used, btw, Viegon (IMO at least) would've been Beast Boy's Beast Forms (I want a do over on that Grizzly Bear ) or the constructs for GLs. They're not all created equally and some do overshadow the others. I'm still glad they exist, though.

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  #230  
Old July 24th, 2015, 12:38 PM
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Should've Figured

Of course the "I'm gonna think on it." gets skipped over from my post. ~_^ I like theme but in a weird sort of parallel symmetry way so that might lean me toward markers. The initial idea posted by Bats feels...contrived? forced? I don't have the right word but I don't look at it and think "That is Justice League". It doesn't feel natural. Not bad, just not kaboom. Let me clarify little gain. What I mean is it doesn't feel like it's a major gain over the other systems mentioned as of yet.

~Dysole, noting that say you kill Martian Manhunter and you have a Batman. Why the heck are you getting to use Justice League tech or MM's whatevskies to do something with Batman? That feels weird thematically.
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  #231  
Old July 24th, 2015, 12:57 PM
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Re: Should've Figured

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Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
The initial idea posted by Bats feels...contrived? forced? I don't have the right word but I don't look at it and think "That is Justice League". It doesn't feel natural. Not bad, just not kaboom
This! Exactly!

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  #232  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:04 PM
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Re: Should've Figured

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
I don't have the right word but I don't look at it and think "That is Justice League".
Have you felt that way about anything else thus far?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole
Let me clarify little gain. What I mean is it doesn't feel like it's a major gain over the other systems mentioned as of yet.
Is it fair, then, to say that you about put it on an even playing field with the other proposals thus far, with no clear winner that just feels completely "right"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole
say you kill Martian Manhunter and you have a Batman. Why the heck are you getting to use Justice League tech or MM's whatevskies to do something with Batman? That feels weird thematically.
The Glyphs represent strategies that they discussed prior to the mission/developed during training and are bringing to the battlefield with them. Does that answer your question? If not, please refine your question, because I found the wording a tad difficult to follow.

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Originally Posted by laughing matter View Post
This! Exactly!
The opposite of this! Exactly!

~Bats, thinking that piling on without elaboration makes for a dull post, especially when it simply furthers an opinion the piler has already expressed.

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  #233  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:07 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
I'm sure there would be additional needed tweaks and things I'm missing out on, plus plenty of room to debate the individual powers and refine the mechanics, but this is my initial shot at it:

JUSTICE LEAGUE STRATEGIC PLANNING
At the start of the game, after Order Markers are placed and before initiative is rolled, you may place up to three League Strategy Equipment Glyphs of different types on this card. Martian Manhunter cannot lose these Equipment Glyphs by any means unless he is destroyed.

(Each of these bullet points would be its own glyph, with a specific character in mind.)

• Once per round, you may reveal the “X” Order Marker on a Batman you control and immediately reorganize any Order Markers on Army Cards you control.

• At the start of the game, if you control Cyborg, place a Glyph of Boom Tube power-side up in any empty space in your Start Zone.

• Before moving a Flash you control, you may choose a small or medium figure you control adjacent to that Flash. After moving that Flash, place the chosen figure adjacent to that Flash.

• Once per game, before a figure you control adjacent to your Green Lantern would roll defense, you may add X dice to the roll, where X is the number of Battery Markers on your Green Lantern’s Army Card.

• When you attack with Black Canary’s Canary Cry Special Attack, figures you control not affected by the attack. After attacking with Black Canary’s Canary Cry Special Attack, you may move any figures you control within 3 spaces of your Black Canary up to 3 spaces each. Figures moved this way do not take leaving engagement attacks.

• For each Order Marker you remove from your Doctor Fate when using Helm of Nabu, you may instead add 2 to your roll.

• Immediately after placing an opponent’s figure with your Wonder Woman’s Golden Lasso Special Power, you may look at any unrevealed Order Marker’s on that figure’s Army Card.

• If an opponent’s figure within 10 clear sight spaces of your Green Arrow moves adjacent to another figure you control, you may immediately roll the 20-sided die. If you roll 16 or higher, the opponent’s figure receives one wound.

• Once per round, after using your Aquaman’s Hand of the Waterbearer Special Power, you may use it 1 additional time.

• Start the game with one Water tile, one Ice tile, one Lava Field tile, and one Shadow Tile on this card. Once per game, after moving your Zatanna and instead of attacking with her, you may place one of these tiles onto any empty space within 4 clear sight spaces of your Zatanna.

• All figures you control who start their turn within 5 clear sight spaces of your Red Tornado may add 1 to their move.

• When rolling for initiative at the start of the round, add 2 to the roll for each common or unique figure your Superman is engaged with, and 4 to the roll for each Event Hero your Superman is engaged with.
I actually really like this idea - it allows Martian Manhunter to be the hub and glue that allows the other JL members to do their thing. It's modular, it's fun, it's different, it does cool and useful stuff, it keeps Martian Manhunter at it's heart, and it shows how each member of the JL can potentially be key. This is, IMO, the best idea I've seen so far. As a fan of the JL cartoons, though, I would like to say I'd love to see a Hawkgirl glyph added. (And maybe the Aquaman one should be viable for other Aquamen?)


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  #234  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:19 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

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Originally Posted by Tornado View Post
I find it mind boggling that you would question Bats' perspective on what it takes to create content for C3G.
I highly respect Bats as a founder of this project and a brilliant designer, but he is, like the rest of us, still just human and therefore not perfect. If a single Hero could always be relied on to perfectly judge the balance of a design, then Public Playtesting wouldn't even exist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
But, for the record, I personally find the First Aid kit very draftable still
I should have clarified more. In and of itself, the First Aid Kit is fine; however, it is overshadowed by the other Utility Glyphs, namely, the Smoke Pellets; both of them fill the same role (one-use glyph to increase the unit's survivability), but the Smoke Pellets, in my opinion, just do it better.

And this is my warning to going this route: designing each glyph in a vacuum will be easy; but as we go on, comparing each new one to 20+ other glyphs to make sure they don't overshadow another one will be extremely hard, especially since each glyph interacts with a specific unit; so calculating the balance between, say, Wonder Woman + her glyph to Green Arrow + his glyph will take a ton of work; possibly more then it would to balance a new unit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
A better example you could've used, btw, Viegon (IMO at least) would've been Beast Boy's Beast Forms (I want a do over on that Grizzly Bear ) or the constructs for GLs. They're not all created equally and some do overshadow the others. I'm still glad they exist, though.
Well, I was going for an example that directly compares, but yeah, those two groupings have fallen into the same thing.

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  #235  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:21 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
I am of the opinion that the final product should have wow factor, but that that is achieved by creative new twists on existing mechanics. When I read all this disucssion of team cards and strategy glyphs, I just see a lot of extra rules.

Now, new extra rules can be good, or even necessary, at times. But don't confuse new rules with "wow factor". "Wow factor" comes from cool gameplay mechanics. That can be achieved using a whole new set of rules, sure, but it can also be achieved by using existing ones in new and creative ways.

Creating a whole new set of rules and a new type of card doesn't guarantee "wow factor". Creating another team that uses markers to denote its members doesn't prevent it. These are simply tools to achieve a goal.
I just have to make clear here, that the Team Card is no more. There is no extra set of rules needed, no change to game mechanics.

How the Glyphs work is essentially the same as Batman II or Apocalypse when selecting glyphs at the start of the game. You can only select "Justice League Glyphs" as Batman can only select "Utility Glyphs". The Glyphs themselves feature a special power on each, representive of a character in the Justice League. In order to use said power, you must control the represented Hero.

That's it. It's literally using a mechanic that is already in the game, in a creative new way. It's being used to have a modifiable synergy based on who you draft.

No new rules. No new card mechanic. Just so we're clear here, because I feel some still are lingering on the "Team Card" idea that was initially proposed, when this isn't that.
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  #236  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:24 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

To me the glyph concept feels like you guys are trying to force the concept. It feels more like a Justice League Spell Book rather than Justice League Strategies, and plans, and the fact that Sock argues that this would be a great basis for a Spell system only drives home that point.

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  #237  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:26 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

I think I understand the excitement the 'glyph team' has for the glyph system, I just don't share in that enthusiasm. I'd personally prefer having all the synergy just on the new figure cards rather then have a MM card + 3 more glyph cards all for MM. And if I run new MM & Cyborg JL figure cards I now have 6 more glyph cards full of powers in play. Toss Batman II into the mix for 3 more utility glyph cards and now I have 12 cards for just 3 figures. Add in 4 more figure cards to take full advantage of the JL glyph cards (Batman II & Cyborg cover 2 of the 6 leaving 4 more JL characters to choose) and I have 16 cards spread out in front of me for just 7 figures. One thing that has always been great about HS in general is that everything you need for a figure is one just one card. Exceeding that mandate for iconic equipment or objects has become routine now but I'd rather not start adding more cards for team synergy when we have already achieved so much team synergy prior to this without doing so.

If we do end up going this route, I'd at least want each new JL figure card limited to just one team glyph in order to keep things in check. Have each team glyph feature 3 different JL members so MM could easily team up with 3 other members of the league with just 1 card. Since you can choose a different team glyph each game you could still rotate the JL line-up. You just end up with similar army builds as each team glyph would result in you drafting at least 2 of the 3 figures mentioned on the team glyph.

While that system is doable, it does eliminate the fun factor of cross publisher mash-ups that some players really enjoy. Where some days I know I'll play a true to form pure JL line-up of Superman, WW, Green Lantern, Flash, Batman, MM, & Hawkgirl. I also know that some days I'll feel like swapping out Superman for Thor, Batman for Daredevil, and Quicksilver for Flash just because I can and it might be fun to try out. The specifically named team glyphs eliminates that option. I've played the X-men with all classic members of the team before and had fun doing so, I've also played the X-men with a mixture of classic members and some mutants that were never featured on the team and had fun with that as well.

Being able to change things up is what keeps the game fresh and new each time you sit down to play. I fear I would quickly grow bored with the JL if I had to use some combination of the same 12 guys each time. I know I still use the Fan 4 when testing because the are a solid 1000 point army to gauge a new units army build against, but when just playing with my friends on the weekend I have not played them in quite a while as I'm always interested in trying out new figures and combos.
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  #238  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:27 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

If Batman's Utility Belt ever hits 20+, it'll have the same problem. Same with the Beast Boy Beast Forms, and to an extent the Green Lantern Power Constructs. The same thing exists to an extent when you have 20+ units at the same point cost. 20+ doesn't happen overnight, though, and doesn't necessarily have to happen at all. We could end up doing 6 and feeling completely happy with it. We could end up doing 9 and feeling completely happy with that.

Batman's Utility Glyphs started with 4, I believe. I say start there for this too and see where it goes. Having an actual reason to draft Martian Manhunter with Wonder Woman or Flash or Aquaman is a major win in my book, even if every single Justice League member doesn't end up getting their own glyph (cuz they won't! ).

Just like we'll probably never get around to creating every single item that's ever been in Batman's Utility Belt. But the idea of it, the openness, the possibilities, and the way it represents the variety of what his Utility Belt does, is what makes that such a fun design. I see similar things here.

Edit: This was a response to Viegon. Got super 'd

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  #239  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:31 PM
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Elaboration

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole View Post
I don't have the right word but I don't look at it and think "That is Justice League".
Have you felt that way about anything else thus far?
Nothing has screamed that to me no, but a few things have definitely said not the way this looks right now.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole
Let me clarify little gain. What I mean is it doesn't feel like it's a major gain over the other systems mentioned as of yet.
Is it fair, then, to say that you about put it on an even playing field with the other proposals thus far, with no clear winner that just feels completely "right"?
Close. I find markers to be the current winner but I won't say it's so far out ahead that I'd rule out something else. I guess I see markers as the default and anything on top of that would have to add something exceptional over that for me to prefer it over markers.

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dysole
say you kill Martian Manhunter and you have a Batman. Why the heck are you getting to use Justice League tech or MM's whatevskies to do something with Batman? That feels weird thematically.
The Glyphs represent strategies that they discussed prior to the mission/developed during training and are bringing to the battlefield with them. Does that answer your question? If not, please refine your question, because I found the wording a tad difficult to follow.
Your clarity on theme allows me to phrase my example perfectly. You have Justice League dudes. I have some other army but I have Batman (doesn't matter who). You have Batman as well. I kill Martian Manhunter and manage to get a hold of the Batman glyph. Now with a justice league strategy, I am able to use my Batman for your Justice League strategy. It feels a bit weird to me. (although a Flash or Green Lantern feels even more odd) Make sense?

~Dysole, poking at things
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  #240  
Old July 24th, 2015, 01:33 PM
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Re: Justice League Design Discussion *Brainstorming*

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Originally Posted by laughing matter View Post
To me the glyph concept feels like you guys are trying to force the concept. It feels more like a Justice League Spell Book rather than Justice League Strategies, and plans, and the fact that Sock argues that this would be a great basis for a Spell system only drives home that point.
I never said that this is a "great basis" for a spell system. I compared this as a completely minor offering to the game in terms of change, whereas a spell system is a major change. So to be OK with a spell system, but point fingers at this claiming it is some sort of drastic departure(which it isn't), just seems odd.

Get your facts straight.
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