Mixing Super Scape With Classic Scape

[IshMEL]

Actually, my vote for Hulk stand-in:



At least until the VC one is released....

[IshMEL]

For whatever reason, I was thinking about this idea of creating "Classic" figures with the Marvel powers and stats. Here's what I came up with:

Spider-Man: Ninja all the way. Renamed powers: Ninja Reflexes, Wuxia Leap, Poisoned Shuriken SA. Possibly change the Leap to Master Woo's?

Iron Man: Some Mecha figure with a jet-pack/wings and a big cannon.

Hulk: The Mage Knight Doom Blade Orc Cyclops. Double spaced and huge now, I know, but for that many points... Or, another troll or ogre figure.

Thanos. The Grim Reaper. Death itself! Renamed power: "Death Cannot Die".

Silver Surfer: Mount a spare Elven Wizard on a spare Theracus. Call him an Archmage so you don't have the Wizard synergy.

Doctor Doom: Graft some Kyrie wings on a Marro Warrior. Make him a Warlord: Dak-Doom-Sa!

Red Skull. Another Dragonborn. Master Manipulator is now a Field Commander-type power, and Dust of Death a breath attack.

Captain America: I think this would have to be Sgt Drake v3, modded somehow. Rename the SA "Thorian Triple Special Attack."

I left out Abomination and Venom since they're basically lesser versions of their foes.

A fun thought-experiment!

[rudyvalentine]

I'm not really looking to sway anyone's opinion here. I've been back and forth on the topic myself over the years and have always been more invested in the classic, Valhalla universe in general, but I do enjoy super heroes and with the constant release of new super hero movies that have exposed me to stories and characters I missed out on as a kid who didn't read comics, I'm more open than ever to mixing classic/VC scape with the Marvel/C3G supers.

My renewed interest and recent acquisition of some C3G units inspired me to host a small, 10-player tournament for some friends that would feature 10, pre-built, 500-510 point, tourney-style armies featuring at least one super hero and thematic supporting units from the classic universe.

I read back through this thread and appreciate Kolakoski's post. I definitely identify with his comments and there are a lot of times I don't desire to mix my scape, but in this instance my objective was not to introduce the super hero's to Valhalla, but rather to use the classic units to support the super hero's universe.

Here's my army builds:

Spoiler Alert!

Armies (all 500 - 510):
Captain America 220
Airborne Elite 110
Sgt. Drake 170

Hulk 370
Microcorp Agents 100 (+1 additional Microcorp @ 33.33)

Wolverine 280
Kaemon Awa 120
Kozuke Samurai 100

Superman 400
Krav Maga Agents 100

Joker 190
Bane 190
Marro Stingers x 2 120

Thor 430
Tarn Vikings 50
Elgrim 30

Iron Man 240
Spider Man 160
Agent Carr 100

Batman 200
Ninjas of the Northern Wind 110
Mika Connour 110
Raelin 80

Doctor Doom 245
Major X17 100
Warden 816 90
Zettian Infantry 65

Red Skull 190
Cyprien 150
Venom 150
Marcu 20

Most of these themes tie into recent movies more than comic lore, because that's what I'm most familiar with. This was my first experience mixing classic and super heroes for the purpose of balanced, semi-competitive, tourney style play on BoV maps. I've done it before (and been plenty frustrated) in casual play. 450 points of Superman vs. 450 points of Cathar Spearmen. Not so much fun.

But having a super on each team with a supporting mix was an enjoyable experience. Superman and Thor are definitely going to make any classic unit look puny in most cases, but for the most part our games were close, thematically enjoyable, and provided plenty of interesting decisions to make. Some highlights include: Superman and Thor, the last men standing for their respective armies, going toe-to-toe for a good twenty minutes of dice rolling goodness; Wolverine slicing through Tarn Vikings and Eldgrim only to fall to a single blow of Thor's hammer; Bane breaking Mika Connour's back before being cut down by the Ninjas of the Northern Wind; Airborne Elite dropping from the sky to surround Dr. Doom; Microcorp Agents repeatedly sighting Superman, but not being able to land the final 2 hits on the Man of Steel for victory.

Based on feedback from my friends and the games I myself played and got to watch, I feel like this experiment was a big success. The games were well paced, fun, and provided some cool, movie-like moments that seemed to really draw the players in. I've played a lot of classic scape over the years and love the characters Hasbro has created and that have come to life on my table, each with their own nicknames, epic moments, and impossible victories. Having this unique cast go head-to-head with super human heroes who always seem to come out on top might seem unfair, but having them fight side-by-side felt just right.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Somehow, playing a full blown mixed Supers - cards from Sherman Davies, C3G, chas, GreyOwl, etc., and chas' restrictions on numbers (see Infinity Gauntlet in my blog) - has me revisiting the idea to occasionally allow relatively low point human Supers, for instance, Sgt. Rock, Black Panther, that don't damage the feel significantly.

[chas]

Regarding Kolakoski's comments above, I don't know how to cross link different threads, so I just want to mention that last year all of us played one game where we did a variation of my "Pulp Adventure" idea (see Battle Reports for a number of themed mixed games I played solitaire), using Supers at a maximum of about 200 points with Classic. I recall I used Kitty Pride/Shadowcat (C3G) and Lockheed the Dragon (C3G) from the X-Men, Lara Croft (Grey Owl), and Indiana Jones (Heroes of Fiction)! So Kolakoski tried that out with us a while ago as well.

[Rÿchean]

On the idea of just relabeling a card to make it Valhalla and not marvel, a good number of those powers were made to capture the flavor of the marvel character. A power like rejected by death would probably not have been pursued in the Valhalla world. There are a few others like the design on surfer. 300 pt cards in general were not were Valhalla was at or where it was going.

So some say "who would argue if it was this way" and I'm saying it would have never been that way.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Rÿchean

On the idea of just relabeling a card to make it Valhalla and not marvel, a good number of those powers were made to capture the flavor of the marvel character. A power like rejected by death would probably not have been pursued in the Valhalla world. There are a few others like the design on surfer. 300 pt cards in general were not were Valhalla was at or where it was going.

So some say "who would argue if it was this way" and I'm saying it would have never been that way.

Thanks for sharing that Rÿchean. I suspected that was the case but would not have known how to argue it.

--

I imagine many/all of the Marvel figures could be toned down to more closely match the power scale of Valhalla. Just subtracting 1 or 2 from most of their base stats would go a long way, in most cases, to make them feel more like Valhalla characters (along with different names and minis). Some of the powersets would still look a little unrestrained (I'm looking at you Silver Surfer) next to Classic units but that could be adjusted as well.

--

As far as C3G goes, not only do they interpret some rules and power wordings differently from the classic game, but there are so many broken or near-broken combos in C3G alone that I couldn't take a mixed game too seriously. Partly because each player, even if they wanted to use only classic, would be forced to take certain C3G counter-drafts if their opponent picked certain figures. That is to say C3G has at least a few, if not many, cards that would be very unfun for a classic army to fight.

--

With all that said, maybe I'll try a mixed game sometime soon--your stories sound fun.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Hey Cap! Broken or almost broken combos in C3G? Which are those?

[caps]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Well met!

Hey Cap! Broken or almost broken combos in C3G? Which are those?

I like Ms. Marvel with Iron Patriot or Red Skull. I like to add in a carrier like Hawkeye II to move Ms. Marvel around. Throw in another potent multi-attacker and you can easily get 4-5+ decent attacks of 4+ dice from range. However, a build like that still depends on getting at-least-decent attack rolls and your opponent getting no-better-than-decent defense rolls.

A more powerful build is one centered around Sage, Brainiac 5, and any auto-wounder (I like Magneto II) or mind-controller (Puppet Master was completely broken with this combo, and is actually being reworked). Sage + Brainiac 5 means that you get +4/+3/+2 to all your d20 rolls while still getting to put each OM wherever you want it right before revealing it.

Any build benefits from figures that let you ignore attacks and/or wounds, like Angel, Bizarro, or Cosmic Boy.

Then there's Commander Rogers, who would be broken in a Classic game all by his lonesome. He can also sub in for Sage and fill basically the same roll (although you'll get one less boon to your d20 roll).

I'm sure dok or kevindola could elaborate on other broken or near-broken combos.

--

Of course, all of these combos require the point value to be higher than normal for classic games. Players who mix at lower point values are less likely to find obnoxious combos, although I'm fairly sure there are still some out there--especially since lower point values leave less room for grabbing the appropriate counter-draft.

[chas]

Is Marvel too powerful to mix with Classic? My theory is that Marvel Scape failed because they declared it non compatible with Classic, which I always thought was a huge mistake, ever since it came out.

But perhaps their license just ran out, or something else occurred that was not design related!

[IshMEL]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Thanks for sharing that Rÿchean. I suspected that was the case but would not have known how to argue it.

--

I imagine many/all of the Marvel figures could be toned down to more closely match the power scale of Valhalla. Just subtracting 1 or 2 from most of their base stats would go a long way, in most cases, to make them feel more like Valhalla characters (along with different names and minis). Some of the powersets would still look a little unrestrained (I'm looking at you Silver Surfer) next to Classic units but that could be adjusted as well.

I don't think the game would ever have gone this way, either.... it's more like one of those "what-if" comic books. If you had to try and re-theme the Marvel figures' powers to "fit" into Valhalla, how could you do it? (Sort of like re-theming Sgt. Drake 2 to get Batman, but in reverse.) The lower-point Marvel heroes work a little better (actually, Venom and Sgt. Drake 2 are pretty close, stat-wise). The others would really be a stretch thematically. Still, a fun thought-experiment.

Next, we can translate all the Marro and Soulborgs into D&D figures. Then take the music out of "My Fair Lady" and turn it back into "Pygmalion"...

[IAmBatman]

Fwiw, C3G's Puppet Master has been reworked and I'm hoping to see enough public interest and participation to see either Sage/Commander Rogers or Brainiac V reworked to end the abuse of that combo.