[Pod 1] Velkhor (Ob Nixilis, Demon of Spite) - Playtesting

[flameslayer93]

Without going through the math myself, if Lefty's stats are correct, those numbers would not be worth keeping the aura simply because its nigh useless in the master set, and its not a game changing power (like Mindshackle). 14.8% to do anything against the majority of the master set (since 3 will presumably be the most common defense number), is just too low.

Overshadowing Taelord is an issue, but unfornately he's largely overshadowed... By just drafting another squad or a big hero.

[Captain Stupendous]

I'd be interested to see how @lefton4ya arrived at his stats. I used the website linked to previously, but I also double checked my results with a probability table that @superfrog shared with me, which confirmed that with 3 defense there is a 25% chance of rolling at least 2 shields, and with 4 defense there is a 40% chance of rolling at least 2 shields.

Here's the table that @superfrog shared with me: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=2121033307

[lefton4ya]

My fault on stats, was looking at probability calculator I found online but think I was using it wrong. Here is the stats on OP power:

• 2 defense the odds of rolling at least two shields is 11%
• 3 defense the odds of rolling at least two shields is 26%
• 4 defense the odds of rolling at least two shields is 41%
• 5 defense the odds of rolling at least two shields is 54%
• 6 defense the odds of rolling at least two shields is 66%
• 7 defense the odds of rolling at least two shields is 73.5%

So Necroblade's suggestion is better than OP in all scenarios besides 7+ defense. Compared to Gothlog, which reduces Dice by 1 it reduces average Shield rolled by 33%, so Necroblade's suggestion is twice as effective (if I grasp combined probabilities correctly).

Bottom line is I think the OP power is slightly weak but you have convinced me Necroblade's suggestion as too strong. I am wiling to stick with OP power as I think it will make a strategy is to combine Velkhor with high attackers, or play to counter high defense units (Minions, Deathwalkers, Q Bros, Counterstrikes).

[Scytale]

Cool. So how much of a price decrease are we looking for? I'll re-suggest 110. The aura isn't terribly strong, but it comes with a potent after-death debuff.

[Captain Stupendous]

It's been a little while since I've tested him, but 110 sounds to me like a good place to start. I'd also be okay with nerfing his vulnerability spirit to just -1D, or making it do the same thing as Frailty Aura. Another potential change I'd consider would be extending the range of Frailty Aura to 6.

As we continue testing, there were a couple other things that are probably worth keeping in mind. First, we should be mindful of the synergy with the Acolytes of Vorganund. I've never played with or against them, but I could see Velkhor ending up as an important piece of an Acolyte/Demon army, which isn't a bad thing necessarily but something we need to consider when thinking about balance. Secondly, since the Master Set is all unique figures, his Vulnerability Spirit is going to be significantly more effective in the MS than it will be generally, which could help to balance things out in the MS meta since he won't have access to bonding.

[Astroking112]

For rolling two shields on 3 defense dice, the probability is (1/3)*(1/3)*(2/3)*3=22% (because there are three different permutations for exactly two defense dice: shield-shield-not, not-shield-shield, and shield-not-shield, each of which has this probability of occurring). Then, the odds of rolling 3 shields is just (1/3)^3=3.7%. Adding that to the probability of rolling 2 shields gets us ~25%, the probability of rolling two or more shields with 3 defense. Following the same logic with 4 dice yields ~40% to roll either 2, 3, or 4 shields.

I think that a decrease to 110 points sounds like it would be a good change here. It's also worth considering adding a high-defense character or two to the set to give him a better chance to shine within just AotV (and we should be aiming for a good defensive spread anyway).

Increasing the aura to 6 spaces gives me a bit of pause. It would certainly be appreciated by the Wolves of Badru and make him easier to position (and more annoying for the enemy, which makes them want to kill him earlier), though that also gives him much more utility in an Acolytes build since they don't have to spend turns bonding with him. I think that it's worth testing if the aura continues to underwhelm at a lower cost.

[lefton4ya]

Maybe make the Aura 5 spaces? No other figure has 5 space aura so is another thing that makes him different, plus 5 aura covers 50% more hexes than 4, but 6 range covers twice as much as 4, at least according to stats on Threatened Hexes -an example of range efficiency

. . . . . ..New Hexes .. . . Total Hexes
Range . . . in Range . . . . in Range
. 1 . . .. . . 6 . . . . . . .. 6
. 2 . . . . . 12 . . . . . . . 18
. 3 . . . . . 18 . . . . . . . 36
. 4 . . . . . 24 . . . . . . . 60
. 5 . . . . . 30 . . . . . . . 90
. 6 . . . . . 36 . . . . . .. 126
. 7 . . . . . 42 . . . . . .. 168

I think upping the aura range will definitely increase his usefulness to the sweet spot, but will still have to finetune price.

As far as VULNERABILITY SPIRIT, as it stands it reduces by 66% so is better than all but 7+ defense figures than a comparable spirit based on the aura:

DEMON'S VULNERABILITY SPIRIT
When Velkhor is destroyed, place this figure on any unique army card. When figure with Velkhor's DEMON'S VULNERABILITY SPIRIT on its card rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if two or more shields are rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

Maybe make the Aura 5 spaces? No other figure has 5 space aura so is another thing that makes him different

Empress Kiova would like a word with you.

But yeah, I'm fine with a larger aura. Debuffs auras are more difficult to use than buffs.

[flameslayer93]

Without any change to the card as is, 110 looks right.

[NecroBlade]

I like how re-rolling a die was "my" version of the power, when it was just an off-the-cuff idea during a post-game discussion. If the math checks out in favor of the current version, that's great. Being more (or only) effective against high defense units is probably part of the problem; with average attacks of 3 and defenses of 4, it'll only matter maybe 1 in 5 attacks (50% of 2+ skulls, 41% of 2+ shields, but rolling 3-4 shields against 2 skulls means still no effect). If you're making 3 attacks per turn (against figures in the aura) that's one, maybe two shields removed per round. That's not nothing, but it's also not much; if you roll 3 skulls against a squad figure that rolls 2 shields, it was dead anyway. So the other part of the problem is even in cases where it technically removes a shield, it still effectively does nothing. Maybe it's just me, but I'd like to see a lot of testing data on exactly how many times the aura actually mattered before I was satisfied. Balance-wise it might not break the game, but it also has to at least be fun to be worthwhile.

On other notes, I agree 110 seems reasonable as-is.

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

I'm still on the fence about the spirit matching the aura. On the one hand, I'd like them to match, like the Vikings. On the other, Arktos provides +1A while alive and +2R when dead. I also don't think -2 Defense is as bad as it looks on paper since you can just kill him late, especially if the aura isn't actually that threatening. That said it's still something to keep an eye on, since -2 Defense can absolutely wreck whatever it ends up on.

[Pumpkin_King]

FWIW I like that version of vulnerability spirit NB just quoted.

[Captain Stupendous]

Map: Fossil

Army 1: Velkhor, Badru x2, Greyspears, Arktos, Isamu (515)
Army 2: 120 Crypt Guardian x2 140 Sudema 50 Drow Chainfighter x2 Tomb Skeleton Archers x4, 90 Warden 816

Which units survived? Isamu

This game I charged straight into the frey with Arktos and my greyspears, who were able to deal three wounds to Sudema, kill a bunch of tomb skeleton archers, and hurt the crypt guardians before they all went down. After that, Velkhor and the wolves closed in to finish off Sudema and the rest of the archers while dealing slow but steady damage to the guardians. It looked like I would take the game easily, until an attack from height against Velkhor dealt 4 wounds in a single attack. In the following rounds, he killed off my wolves while I slowly whittled away at the crypt guardians life. Eventually it came down to just isamu vs Warden 816 with the velkhor aura and one chainfighter. Isamu was able to survive a few early attacks and grab wannok, which made my opponent choose to sacrifice Warden. Isamu and the chainfighter spent a few turns trading attacks, before the ninja was finally able to land the killing blow.

How useful were playtesting units' powers and how often did they come into play?

His normal attack dealt 2 wounds on crypt guardian, 1 wound on archer

His aura caused crypt guardians to take 3 wounds that would otherwise have been blocked, and one wound on a chain guardian that would otherwise have been blocked.

His spirit was placed on Warden, which made my opponent choose to lose warden to wannok instead of his last chainfighter when it came down to them vs Isamu. If Warden had been at full strength, my opponent probably would have chosen to lose the chainfighter, which meant that Warden probably could have held wannok against Isamu.

Any additional comments (theme, balance, fun factor with and against)?

Velkhor actually felt very useful this game, as his aura was instrumental in dealing damage to the crypt guardians, and allowed me to more confidently use pounce against the tomb skeletons and sudema. While he dealt more damage than usual, he’s still definitely not worth 145 points. However, I also don’t think a total rework of his powers is necessary either. Simply lowering his point value, plus a couple small tweaks to his powers should be enough to put him in a healthier place, in my opinion. If there were to be changes to his design, I would recommend either giving him Stealth Flying, or extending the range of his aura to 5 or 6 spaces. Stealth Flying would be my preferred direction, as this would let him be more aggressive in positioning his debuff aura, knowing that he can easily escape if he gets too surrounded.

Spoiler Alert!

Version Tested
VALKRILL
Velkhor
Demon
Unique Hero
Darklord
Tormenting
Medium 5

LIFE 5
MOVE 6
RANGE 1
ATTACK 3
DEFENSE 3

POINTS 145

FRAILTY AURA
When an opponent's figure within 4 clear sight spaces of Velkhor rolls defense dice against a normal or special attack, if two or more shields are rolled, subtract one from the number of shields rolled.

DEMON'S VULNERABILITY SPIRIT 2
When Velkhor is destroyed, place this figure on any unique army card. Velkhor’s spirit subtracts 2 from the defense value on that army card.

FLYING