The Book of Ninjak

[LordVenoc]

Updated the language. I'm tempted to add something that boosts Drone usage for Agents, kind of like the bomb effect on the boots, but I don't know that it is overly necessary.

Would the two of those plus one smoke pellet be too much for him, especially points-wise? He uses smoke pellets and such a lot, so I'd like to keep it, but I think the two new ones are much more fun thematically so the pellet would be the one I'd drop.

Edit: I'm also thinking of giving three hits with the Shuriken per johnny's suggestion, but again, don't want to take him out of the 210-240 range I'm aiming at.

[IAmBatman]

Is Tactical Improvisation meant to work no matter which player's figure is attacking?

I'm calculating him at about 155 without the equipment glyphs, so I don't think you'll have too much issue keeping him under your desired ceiling.

[LordVenoc]

It is not. I will correct that.

That feels kinda low, especially with Tactical Improv intended as more of a negative. An attack bump to 5 will probably be the first thing I look at if he's coming in weak.

[MrNobody]

Personally I’m against an attack of 5. Maybe it’s just a case of “I don’t know the character, so I don’t value him as highly” but I think Batman should really be the best a “regular human” character can get. I know there are some other cases where more-or-less normal humans have had 5 attack (Black Bat and Red Skull come to mind), but I see those as corner cases. I think 4 attack is perfectly fine for a guy who’s really good with a sword.

I’m interested to see how he comes out though. The glyphs give him a lot of tricks that will bump his points up quite a bit I think.

[Yodaking]

Agree with Nobody, Mr.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Personally I’m against an attack of 5. Maybe it’s just a case of “I don’t know the character, so I don’t value him as highly” but I think Batman should really be the best a “regular human” character can get. I know there are some other cases where more-or-less normal humans have had 5 attack (Black Bat and Red Skull come to mind), but I see those as corner cases. I think 4 attack is perfectly fine for a guy who’s really good with a sword.

I’m interested to see how he comes out though. The glyphs give him a lot of tricks that will bump his points up quite a bit I think.

Except he's not just "really good with a sword." He is a close combat master. A heck of a lot of his fights in his books are literal hand to hand fights. He is incredibly well trained a combatant and that's especially evident in the Siege of King's Castle arc where he is completely without his equipment. And he's not even technically a regular human due to his mystical training from the Undead Monk. If it is a consolation you could argue the 5 is due to modifications to the Katana he uses which has multiple functionalities in of itself.

So to shorten: He is essentially Valiant's Batman, but a secret agent. He would merit 5, but I don't think it is necessary (otherwise I probably would have started with it).

Edit: To clarify, I'm thinking this more specifically in the case where he is barely cracking 200. I'm not saying this as a "grr he needs to be 240!" kind of situation. He 100% is Batman range, which is why I've referenced the range of Bat points here, but I don't for a second intend to force him to the high end.

[johnny139]

Yeah, Ninjak is definitely Batman tier and 5 Attack is definitely reasonable.

For the new Glyphs: like the idea for both but in general feel like they'd be distractingly complex for a card that's otherwise pretty lean.

[MrNobody]

I think we agree, we just stated it in different ways. 210-240 sounds like a good range. Personally I’d lean towards 230 or under, but again I don’t know the character.

For the sake of argument, my position is that Batman should really be the top dog of the human/near-human characters. He has the super-duper-badass ninja training, but he also has some extreme narrative importance that almost no other characters in fiction have, and that gives him a big head start. He’s so powerful not because of any combat training or resources, but because he’s Batman. I think if we start to push every badass human character up to the >230 range and then give them Bat-stats, that’s when you start to see some power creep.

I don’t really think that’s what you were saying, and like I said I think we agree with the general direction. Just felt the need to get my thoughts out there.

[LordVenoc]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

For the sake of argument, my position is that Batman should really be the top dog of the human/near-human characters. He has the super-duper-badass ninja training, but he also has some extreme narrative importance that almost no other characters in fiction have, and that gives him a big head start. He’s so powerful not because of any combat training or resources, but because he’s Batman. I think if we start to push every badass human character up to the >230 range and then give them Bat-stats, that’s when you start to see some power creep.

See, now this feels contradictory in its logic. This literally feels like you're saying "Well because Batman is the most popular human vigilante, he should be the best." Which is faulty logic. He has narrative importance literally because of his popularity and because writers like to make him ridiculously overblown.

Training is a valid argument. If popularity of certain characters (and don't try to convince me "Because he's Batman" is not a popularity argument, it is) is starting to dictate design powers, I'm going to just back off Indy designs now, because they'll never wind up where they should be. We reached some appropriate ground with Midnighter, but "There's no way this guy is at the level of insert popular character here back down your write up" is gonna get old fast.

I really hope that's not the point you're trying to convey, but it kinda feels like it.

EDIT: It feels super weird to already be bringing up this argument/situation when there's not some specific issue being addressed, but after the second time in a short period, it gets frustrating when it feels like the popularity argument is coming in again.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by johnny139

For the new Glyphs: like the idea for both but in general feel like they'd be distractingly complex for a card that's otherwise pretty lean.

I agree with this take.

[MrNobody]

I feel like narrative importance absolutely plays a role in how effective a character is, and if it’s a part of their character it should be considered within the game. It’s not “Character A is more popular than Character B, that means Character A is more powerful.” It’s that, within the realm of his story, Batman’s actual effectiveness is boosted to insane, seemingly supernatural levels because the narrative says so. Like you said, the writers write him as overblown, and like it or not (I tend to lean towards not), I think he should be portrayed in C3G the way he is in the comics.

I just personally think 210-230 is the correct range for “peak human performance, maybe with a slight superhuman edge” with maybe a few falling at 240 if they’re like, the premier badass of their superhero universe or if, like Cap, they’re bordering on superpowers. Guys like Shang-Chi and Karate Kid have insane training and are both at 230. I just happen to think Batman is a rare exception to the rule, not something the rule should be based off.

[johnny139]

I tend to agree with Nobody in that more iconic characters should have "that edge" but, as a Valiant guy, I'll emphasize that Ninjak isn't setting a baseline for the universe. He's essentially their Batman and warrants "exceptional" treatment.