The Book of Beta Ray Bill

[TrollBrute]

I'm fine with Back-to-Back being a power that doesn't activate a lot. It's a thematic power that is lots of fun when you can pull it off, but it won't happen more than a few times a game. Personally, I have no problem with making changes this far into the process, but I just don't see the changes being warranted in this case. I would much rather lower his cost or raise his stats.

EDIT: marrowick, I notice that the links in the OP link to the playtesters user profiles. The links should lead to the playtests themselves instead. Like so: Yodaking

[Gurei-Ornery]

Why not just remove the Asgardian restriction from B2B? I would prefer to not have another pigeonholed figure. What is thematic about the restriction? Would he not fight similarly with anyone, if it is in his nature to do so?

[Ronin]

Technically, Starfire should probably be willing to protect any teammate, regardless of whether or not they're a member of the Teen Titans, and there's no biological reason for Professor X to have trouble telling non-Mutants what to do.

Back to Back needs to be restricted for balance reasons. Making it open to anybody would swing his cost way up just by allowing him to team with Carry figures, and I'm sure there'd be all manner of other exploits. I think beefing up his stats would be the way to go here.

If you're worried about his draftability outside Asgardian-based armies, I think he'll always be solid if you pair him with Sif (which makes sense, thematically). You can throw Sif into a high-point game without too much trouble, and she works well with Bill.

[IAmBatman]

With this many figures to choose from, restrictions are good for both strategic balance and theme (i.e. encouraging you to play with figures and teams you might not otherwise). Not everything can or should work well with everything else.

[Yodaking]

Left as is, he needs a significant point drop then. If you want his points to stay fairly high, I'd bump up his life for starters. More life means more time in the fight and thus the rest of his stats & powers have more time to shine.

[IAmBatman]

6 Life definitely does seem low for 420. I'm fine with lowering him a bit or with bumping his life a bit.

[Ronin]

I'd really rather bring the stats up to match the cost than the cost down to match the stats; Bill's supposed to be on Thor's level, not just a knock-off.

[marrowick]

Originally Posted by Ronin

I'd really rather bring the stats up to match the cost than the cost down to match the stats; Bill's supposed to be on Thor's level, not just a knock-off.

Same. I've been a little wary o his stats for a while. I would really like to bring his life and maybe attack/defense by at least 1.

[Yodaking]

If we want him to come in at 420, Thor at 430 should be a pretty good starting point for comparisons sake. Both are Medium 5, Valiant Champions.

Both have a SA, that are somewhat similar in nature. Thor has range 6 (and can attack at range even when engaged) vs. BRB range 4. Thor attack is capped at 4, where BRB attack will also be 4 most of the time but could move up to as high as 6 when attacking multiple adj. figures. Both can attack all adj. figures. Pretty even in value with Thor getting a slight edge IMO as the extra range and ability to attack at range even when engaged is more significant that the extra attack die when facing 2+ adj. figures.

Thor has God of Thunder Strike vs. BRB's B2B power. The auto wounds Thunder Strike are nice but don't happen all that often. BRB's B2B is limited to Asgurdians and that Asgurdian must both start & end their turn adj. to BRB. Pretty nice getting an extra attack from BRB but it seems to only happen once or twice per game, and often results in a range 4 attack of 4 rather then the melee attack of 7. I give BRB the edge here though since Thunder Strike does not happen at all in most of my Thor games.

So I think you could match stats for the most part. Maybe leave BRB's attack at 7 since we do want him to come in at less than Thor's 430 and the B2B power means BRB gets to attack. That means bumps up to 8 life & 8 defense from where he is at right now would seem appropriate.

[fret_gurglo]

While I was waiting for the stats for another playtest I thought I would give Beta Ray a run. Overall I would agree that he is overcost at 420, but I would suggest to only raise his Life by 1 to get him to the 420 mark and leave his Attack and Defense at 7.

[fret_gurglo]

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE TEST UNIT Beta Ray Bill

- THEME TEST/ Check to see if there are any powers or stats on the test unit card that does not accurately reflect the theme or likeness of what the character would and could do. Also consider destructible objects, and whether or not this characters powers should affect them.
Pass

- MIRROR TEST/ Check to see if the unit were played against itself, if there would be any loops that would upset the balance of the Game.
Pass

- BONDING TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing Bonding abilities to make sure there are no continual Bonding possibilities that do not stop appropriately or do not stop at all. This is to prevent loops in Bonding.
Pass.

- SYNERGIES TEST/ Compare the unit card with all possible currently existing synergies to make sure there are no factors that could break the game by making any unit to powerful or too weak.
Pass.

- POWER CHECK/ Consider the test unit and all existing units and all glyphs to compare to and check for any powers that could be over amplified and break the game. Each power must define when it takes place, who or what it affects, and What are the stipulations on the power if there are any.
Pass.

- FUN TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play.
Pass.

- FUN COMPETITIVE TEST/ Consider whether or not the design was fun to play against.
Pass.

- DRAFTING TEST/ Consider whether or not this design is worth drafting.
Pass.

- USAGE TEST/ Consider whether or not all of the powers on this card were used or at least usable.
Pass.

- STRATEGY TEST/ Consider whether or not the design offers any real strategy or interesting tactics to the overall game.
Pass.

Beta Ray is useful as a straight bruiser. I found his Stormbreaker power a little weaker than Thors. His Back to Back power is somewhat hard to get characters into position to use and even easier to counter. However it is powerful enough that even using it 2 or 3 times a game will be able to alter its outcome. Overall I would say he is slightly over cost at 420 and should come in around 400 or maybe 410.

_____________________________________________________________

Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes
- What should be the unit's point value? 400-420
Give a brief overview. Although Back to Back is difficult to use, it is very powerful. It took until round 5 to start to activate it (after Magneto and Blob were destroyed). Otherwise a close match, in fact if Thor had not stunk so bad the Asgardians would have a greater victory.
Map: Swamp Lab
Units: ASGARDIANS (1890) – Asgardian Warrior x2 (380), Beta Ray Bill (420), Balder (420), Captain America (240), Thor (430)VERSUS HORSEMEN OF APOCALPYPSE (1905) – Apocalypse (620), Archangel (260), Blob (165), Catwoman (145), Magneto (310), Quicksilver (215), Sage (190)
UNIT SUM-UP
Damage Inflicted(normal attacks): 1 wound Magneto, 3 wounds Apocalypse, 6 wounds on Blob
Power Usage/Effectiveness:
Stormbreaker Special:
Range: 2 times for 3 wounds
Adjacent: 0 times
Back to Back: 5 times

Spoiler Alert!

Apocalypse chooses Shrinking Ray Gun and Makluan Energy Rings
Captain America places Avengers Markers on Balder, Thor, Beta Ray and the Asgardian Warriors
Round 1
Asgardians win Initiative
Captain America advances
Sage reveals X OM to place an Enhancement marker on Magento
Asgardian Warriors advances with Balder & Thor
Magneto advances and attacks Captain America from height for 1 wound
Beta Ray advances
Magneto attacks Asgardian Warrior for 3 wounds
Round 2
Horsemen win Initiative
Magneto destroys an Asgardian Warrior
Balder reveals X OM to use God of Light, then advances and attacks, but misses Magneto
Sage places Enhancement marker on Archangel
Captain America advances to Magneto and hits for 1 wound
Archangel flies over Cap, lands and hits for 1 wound
Asgardian Warrior loses a turn
Round 3
Asgardians win Initiative
Captain America hits Magneto for 2 wounds. Archangel flies but does no damage
Magneto destroys Captain America
Asgardian Warrior and Thor advance
Archangel does 2 wounds to Asgardian Warrior
Thor leaves Engagement (no damage) and uses God of Thunder but fails on all rolls
Blob hits Asgardian Warrior for 1 wound
Round 4
Horsemen win Initiative
Apocalypse attacks Thor (no damage), then uses Shrinking Ray and Energy Rings on Thor for a -2 Attack and 3 wounds
Beta Ray destroys Magneto. Archangel flies for 1 wound on Balder
Sage attacks Thor for 2 wounds and places Enhancement marker on Apocalypse
Balder advances to Apocalypse and hits for 1 wound, knocking the Ray Gun from his hand. Archangel flies and hits Balder for 1 wound and picks up Ray Gun
Apocalypse destroys Thor. Energy Rings fail
Thor loses a turn
Round 5
Horsemen win Initiative
Apocalypse misses Balder and Energy Rings fail
Beta Ray hits Blob for 2 wounds. Archangel fails all rolls
Archangel flies and hits Balder for 1 wound then attacks but misses Beta Ray. He then uses Shrinking Ray on Beta Ray
Balder hits Apocalypse for 2 wounds and the rings go flying. Beta Ray uses Back to Back to attack Blob and destroys him. Archangel fails all rolls
Quicksilver runs and picks up Energy Rings, attacks Balder (no damage and then moves and passes the rings to Apocalypse
Balder attacks Apocalypse but misses and Beta Ray uses Back to Back but misses Archangel. Archangel flies twice to place 1 wound on Balder
Round 6
Horsemen win Initiative
Apocalypse misses Balder but uses Energy Rings. Balder takes 2 wounds and Beta Ray, Asgardian Warrior, Quicksilver, Archangel and Sage all take 1 wound
Balder moves and destroys Sage
Apocalypse does enough damage to destroy Balder, but instead he heals 1 wound. Apocalypse uses Energy Rings which again would destroy Balder and he again heals 1 wound. Catwoman and Quicksilver take 1 wound each
Balder hits Apocalypse for 2 wounds and the Rings are lost again. Archangel flies and hits Beta Ray for 1 wound
Apocalypse misses Balder but uses Rings to hit Beta Ray for 2 wounds and destroying Asgardian Warrior
Asgardian Warrior loses a turn
Round 7
Horsemen win Initiative
Archangel misses all rolls but uses Shrinking Ray on Beta Ray
Beta Ray (Tiny) leaves engagement to attack Apocalypse but does no damage. Archangel does no damage
Archangel does 1 wound to Balder and Shrinks him
Balder does no damage but Back to Back allows a tiny Beta Ray to hit Apocalypse for 3 wounds
Archangel hits Balder for 1 wound
Balder destroys Apocalypse (nothing from Archangel) and Back to Back allows Beta Ray to use Stormbreaker on Archangel for 1 wound
Round 8
Asgardians win Initiative
Balder hits Catwoman for 4 wounds and Beta Ray uses Stormbreaker for another 2 wounds
Archangel flies over and destroys Beta Ray, attacks but misses Balder and then uses Shrinking Ray on Balder
Balder hits Catwoman for 1 wound
Archangel would destroy Balder, but instead he heals 1 wound
Balder hits Archangel for 2 wounds. The Shrinking Ray is thrown away and Archangel flies to pick it up
Archangel flies and inflicts 1 wound on Balder. He then attacks but Balder heals 1 wound
Round 9
Asgardians win Initiative
Balder leaves engagement to pick up Energy Rings. He misses Archangel who flies and equally misses Balder. Balder then uses Energy Rings to destroy Archangel
Archangel loses a turn
Balder hits Quicksilver for 1 wound
Archangel loses a turn
Balder misses Quicksilver but then uses Energy Rings to destroy him
Quicksilver loses a turn
Round 10
Asgardians win Initiative
Balder destroys Catwoman



Who won and how many wounds did they have? Asgardians win with Balder who ended up with 5 wounds

_____________________________________________________________

Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes
- What should be the unit's point value? ???
Give a brief overview. This was a catastrophe for the champions. Enchanted team actually ended the game with more points than they started with because of Soul Swap.
Map: Swamp Lab
Units: CHAMPIONS (1590) – Allen the Alien (400), Beta Ray Bill (420), Mongul (340), Thor (430)VERSUS ENCHANTED (1595) – Angel (90), Cyclops (190), Deadpool (285), Enchantress (380), Jean Grey (180), Sage (190), Wolverine (280)
UNIT SUM-UP
Damage Inflicted(normal attacks): 1 wound Magneto, 3 wounds Apocalypse, 6 wounds on Blob
Power Usage/Effectiveness:
Stormbreaker Special:
Range: 2 times for 3 wounds
Adjacent: 0 times
Back to Back: 5 times

Spoiler Alert!

Mongul chooses Thor for his Champion
Round 1
Champions win Initiative
Mongul advances and uses Warworld to inflict 1 wound on each Jean Grey and Cyclops
Sage reveals X OM to place an Enhancement marker on Cyclops
Thor advances
Cyclops has Angel carry him to high ground and then attacks Thor for no damage
Beta Ray advances
Enchantress advances and hits Beta Ray for 1 wound
Round 2
Champions win Initiative
Mongul advances and uses Warworld but fails
Enchantress uses Cyclops to attack Beta Ray but it is blocked
Thor uses Mjolnir on Cyclops but does no damage. Enchantress reveals X OM to trade Thor for Angel
Enchantress uses Cyclops to hit Mongul for 2 wounds
Allen the Alien advances
Sage moves OM 3 to Thor. Thor attacks Mongul and destroys him
Round 3
Champions win Initiative
Allen the Alien attacks Enchantress for 1 wound
Thor destroys Beta Ray
Beta Ray loses a turn
Enchantress uses Cyclops to destroy Angel
Beta Ray loses a turn
Enchantress uses Cyclops to hit Allen for 3 wounds
Round 4
Champions win Initiative
Allen the Alien attacks Enchantress but does not roll a single skull
Thor attacks Allen but misses
Allen hits Enchantress for 1 wound
Thor destroys Allen the Alien




Who won and how many wounds did they have? Enchanted team wins, Cyclops & Jean Grey have 1 wound each, Enchantress ended with 2 wounds and Deadpool, Wolverine, Sage and Thor are uninjured

Army Test
- Does it pass, Yes or No? Yes
- What should be the unit's point value? 400-410
Give a brief overview. Beta Ray was soul swapped and used aggressively by the other team. The Asgardian team was reluctant to strike back at Beta Ray with the hopes that he would eventually come back, and he did but it was too late.
Map: Swamp Lab
Units: ASGARDIANS (1590) – Beta Ray Bill (420), Heimdall (390), Thor (430), Valkyrie (350)VERSUS ENCHANTED (1595) – Angel (90), Cyclops (190), Deadpool (285), Enchantress (380), Jean Grey (180), Sage (190), Wolverine (280)
UNIT SUM-UP
Damage Inflicted(normal attacks): 4 wounds Thor, 7 wounds Heimdall, 2 wounds Angel
Power Usage/Effectiveness:
Stormbreaker Special:
Range: 3 times for 3 wounds
Adjacent: 1 time for 2 wounds
Back to Back: 2 times

Spoiler Alert!

Bifrost is placed near Enchanted Start Zone
Round 1
Asgardians win Initiative
Thor uses the Bifrost and attempts God of Thunder, all rolls fail
Enchantress has Wolverine strike at Thor for 1 wound
Valkyrie uses Bifrost and hits Wolverine for 1 wound
Enchantress has Wolverine attack Valkyrie twice for 2 wounds and then heals 1 wound
Beta Ray advances
Enchantress uses Wolverine for another 3 wounds on Valkyrie
Round 2
Asgardians win Initiative
Beta Ray advances and uses Stormbreaker for 1 wound on Enchantress. Angel flies and drops Sage beside Wolverine
Sage attacks Valkyrie for 1 wound and places Enhancement marker on Wolverine
Thor hits Wolverine for 3 wounds. Beta Ray uses Stormbreaker on Wolverine for another 2
Enchantress has Wolverine destroy Valkyrie and deal 3 wounds to Thor and Wolverine heals 1 wound
Thor destroys Wolverine. Angel carries Sage away. Beta Ray uses Stormbreaker on Enchantress but misses
Sage moves OM 3 to Jean Grey. Jean Grey fails to move Thor, nor does she do any damage
Round 3
Asgardians win Initiative
Thor hits Deadpool for 4 wounds
Cyclops has Angel carry him to high ground and then has Jean Grey take a turn. Again she fails to throw or do any damage
Beta Ray attacks Deadpool but does no damage. Enchantress uses Soul Swap to trade Jean Grey for Beta Ray Bill
Sage moves OM 2 to Beta Ray who attacks Thor but does no damage
Thor destroys Deadpool
Enchantress moves and attacks Thor for no damage
Round 4
Enchanted win Initiative
Beta Ray misses Thor
Heimdall uses Bifrost and attacks Enchantress for 1 wound
Beta Ray hits Thor for 1 wound
Thor hits Enchantress for 1 wound. Angel carries her away
Beta Ray his Thor for 1 wound
Thor leaves engagement to deal another wound on Enchantress
Round 5
Enchanted win Initiative
Beta Ray is held by Jean Grey and so must attack Heidall for 3 wounds
Thor does no damage and Angel carries Enchantress away
Beta Ray is held and misses Heimdall
Thor hits Sage for 1 wound
Beta Ray is held and misses Heimdall
Thor destroys Sage
Round 6
Enchanted win Initiative
Beta Ray is held and misses Heimdall
Thor hits Enchantress for 1 wound and Angel carries her away
Beta Ray takes 1 wound from leaving engagement and misses Thor
Thor takes no LEA and hits Enchantress for 1 wound and Angel carries her away
Beta Ray hits Thor for 1 wound
Heimdall hits Cyclops for 2 wounds
Round 7
Enchanted win Initiative
Beta Ray destroys Thor
Jean Grey tosses Cyclops and then then attacks to destroy him
Beta Ray misses Heimdall
Thor loses a turn
Beta Ray hits Heimdall for 3 wounds
Heimdall takes no action
Round 8
Enchanted win Initiative
Beta Ray destroys Hemdall
Jean Grey fails to throw Enchantress but succeeds in hitting for 1 wound and destroys her. Jean Grey and Beta Ray switch sides
OM 2 is lost
OM 2 is lost
OM 3 is lost
Heimdall loses a turn
Round 9
Asgardians win Initiative
Beta Ray hits Angel for 2 wounds. Angel flies and carries Jean Grey to high ground
Jean Grey hits Beta Ray for 1 wound
Beta Ray moves and uses Stormbreaker to hit both Jean Grey and Angel. He misses Jean Grey but destroys Angel (2 wounds)
Jean Grey hits for 1 wound
Beta Ray misses
Jean Grey tosses Beta Ray for 1 wound and then destroys him




Who won and how many wounds did they have? Enchanted team wins with Jean Grey at full health

[marrowick]

I agree that maybe only raise his life by one and I see sense in leaving his attack at seven due to B2B being powerful enough already even with all the restrictions, but I still feel like I should push for 8 defense, or give him 8 life (which while it's a lot it would be a less powerful buff than 8 defense). I just don't quite feel like he's quite reached that "toe-to-toe with Thor" mark yet.

EDIT: Oh and thanks for the test Fret I'm sorry if we have to redo things right after you finished.

EDIT2: Also I'm going to be gone anywhere from 7 to 10 days. My grandma's about to die and we're going leave tomorrow to go see her before it happens then stay for the funeral. So I'll probably be unreachable for a little while and at the very least on very little.