The Book of Civilians

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by MrNobody

Was the intent with Red Skull that he shouldn’t be able to use Master Motivator off of wounding his own guys? I’ve always played it as he can destroy a cheap Hydra goon to scare others into action, Darth Vader style. If that’s not the intent, now seems like the perfect time to change him.

EDIT:

It's actually not how he was originally tested. He was definitely originally designed on the assumption that you can't attack your own figures. There was a suggestion to take the ability away when Master Motivator got patched, but the public members who chimed in really wanted to keep it. It's fun, thematic, and it's not the busted part of Red Skull.

Most "move on defense" type powers are already written to clarify that you can't trigger them by attacking yourself. Check out Joker Goons or Robin (Dick Grayson).

Sorry if I wasn't clear before Bats, but we definitely didn't take an established rule and throw it out thoughtlessly. There wasn't actually such a rule in place, and we decided not to create one.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Ronin

People were aware of attacking your own figures at least as far back as 2014. It came up when Master Motivator was reused on Iron Patriot (see the discussion there and in Red Skull's thread about how to patch the wording to prevent infinite bonding between the two of them).

I scanned through Iron Patriot's whole thread just now and here are my takeaways:

1. The conversation (in his thread at least) took place in 2012, not 2014. He was designed in 2012 and released in 2013.

2. Nowhere in the discussion there do I see anything about attacking your own figures. My understanding of that infinite loop was just that you'd be tossing the turn football back and forth between Red Skull and Iron Patriot, not that attacking your own figures was ever part of the equation. I don't see anywhere in his thread where it was discussed that way either.

Maybe it was in Red Skull's thread in 2014, though? I'd have to look.

[IAmBatman]

I'm sure you're right, though. It was probably never a directly stated rule. I can tell you, though, that it was an assumption that formative members of the group were designing under, and that this realization has the potential to impact many designs that were never costed or intended with that cheese.

You have to realize that pre-CRB we just didn't consider some of the cheesy tactics that the CRB folks pointed us toward. That's as true for the Civvies and attacking your own figures as it is for any other design that became concerning due to really unexpected tactics or combinations.

[Ronin]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I scanned through Iron Patriot's whole thread just now and here are my takeaways:

1. The conversation (in his thread at least) took place in 2012, not 2014. He was designed in 2012 and released in 2013.

2. Nowhere in the discussion there do I see anything about attacking your own figures. My understanding of that infinite loop was just that you'd be tossing the turn football back and forth between Red Skull and Iron Patriot, not that attacking your own figures was ever part of the equation. I don't see anywhere in his thread where it was discussed that way either.

Maybe it was in Red Skull's thread in 2014, though? I'd have to look.

Ah, my bad. There's definitely relevant conversation in Skull's thread. I was thinking it had come up in Iron Patriot's, but I guess the "attacking your own figures" part was a side issue that started elsewhere.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I'm sure you're right, though. It was probably never a directly stated rule. I can tell you, though, that it was an assumption that formative members of the group were designing under, and that this realization has the potential to impact many designs that were never costed or intended with that cheese.

You have to realize that pre-CRB we just didn't consider some of the cheesy tactics that the CRB folks pointed us toward. That's as true for the Civvies and attacking your own figures as it is for any other design that became concerning due to really unexpected tactics or combinations.

Oh, for sure. A lot of the cheese discovery and reevaluation stress was happening when I first joined up.

I think attacking your own figures probably isn't a lingering source of cheese for most powers like Panic, though. My experience is that, if only for the sake of clarity, you guys tended to be explicit about powers like that triggering on opponents' attacks. (or you already retconned those kinds of restrictions in after discovering years ago that you'd struck cheese)

I'd be happy to help with some research on going through early designs and figuring out exactly who's impacted by attacking your own figures, just to try and identify any other unaddressed cases like the Civs. Probably I'll start getting the time for that right around April 24th.

[Lord Pyre]

I had attacking-your-own-figures specifically in mind when designing The Crow (Shooting the bird off your friends heads).

Not that that design should be a role model.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

I had attacking-your-own-figures specifically in mind when designing The Crow (Shooting the bird off your friends heads).

Not that that design should be a role model.

Don’t remember much about the design process with that one. Did you share that intent with anyone?

[IAmBatman]

@Ronin

Would this do the trick?

PANIC
After a figure you control rolls defense dice against an enemy figure's normal attack, you may move any 2 Citizens you control up to 4 spaces each. A Citizen moved with Panic must start its movement within 8 clear sight spaces of the defending figure. When a Citizen moves with Panic, it will take any leaving engagement attacks.

[quozl]

Why are you changing my favorite unit?

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by quozl

Why are you changing my favorite unit?

Is your favorite part about it attacking your own figures to move the Civilians?

[quozl]

Yes, that's one of my favorite bits.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by quozl

Yes, that's one of my favorite bits.

Bummer. It's:

1. Never been the intention of the design
2. Considered competitively overpowered by Soundwarp

[MrNobody]

Well the gist was that he feels it’s really powerful, and because of that it’ll hold back the design of every future Citizen.