The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Kinseth]

I most worry about Aura of Terror vs Common Squads, that was my biggest point to make

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

I most worry about Aura of Terror vs Common Squads, that was my biggest point to make

I was wondering if removing the Dwarves/Fearless immunity for a player to exclude their own army from Masha's aura changed your mind on it being too powerful. My apologies for not making this clearer.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Normally I would agree that it's best to exclude Special Attacks from powers such as these, but I don't see why it should be discouraged in this case (at least from a rules perspective).

If it was a power that negated the wounds I would agree. We also have cases where the targeted figure gets to move or a new figure is spawned. That's still very, very different than inflicting a wound on the attacking figure. That can do all sorts of things, like killing the attacking figure or triggering yet another power. And gets really messy when interrupting some special attacks.

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I was wondering if removing the Dwarves/Fearless immunity for a player to exclude their own army from Masha's aura changed your mind on it being too powerful. My apologies for not making this clearer.

No, I think you are missing my point. Many opposing armies will be at such a severe disadvantage with that -1 attack dice that they will have no shot of winning the match.

Armies featuring Blade Gruts, Goblin Cutters etc... Will have 1 attack dice, facing Samurai's(Who's CS is now on steroids), or you have brought along high attack dice squad figures like Dreadguls or HSB's. You will have designed your army to compensate for the potential -1 attack. It is just too powerful and handicaps too many opposing armies.

There is a reason why the C3V team moved away from this, I wouldn't try to make a case for it further, when the people judging this already nix'd the idea on their own designs.

Edit - I know you were not in the know on Gothlok's original design, but it should shed some light on why several are vocally against such a power. Take some time to reflect on it.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I took the wording directly from the Mohican River Tribe (I was actually surprised to see that it does work on Special Attacks). Since the ability specifies being targeted, it solves a great many of those conditions (things like Mimring's Fire Line don't target any figures, the Explosion SAs only target the main figure, Ice Shards targets each figure, etc.), but Lolth's Wrath is definitely the most problematic SA. The Book of Pelloth has the answer on how Lolth's Wrath interacts with Isamu, Venom, and other units with defensive powers that work against Special Attacks:

If it is still a problem, then I will rewrite the ability to only work against normal ranged attacks, but this is following perfectly in the precedent of other figures from classic HeroScape, so it seems to have already addressed the problematic cases. Normally I would agree that it's best to exclude Special Attacks from powers such as these, but I don't see why it should be discouraged in this case (at least from a rules perspective).

Roman Archers pose issues for this as well. If you're just ignoring damage like the Mohicans it's fine, but if you're redirecting anything then Special Attacks get wonky, so it should only work on normal.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Scytale

If it was a power that negated the wounds I would agree. We also have cases where the targeted figure gets to move or a new figure is spawned. That's still very, very different than inflicting a wound on the attacking figure. That can do all sorts of things, like killing the attacking figure or triggering yet another power. And gets really messy when interrupting some special attacks.

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

Roman Archers pose issues for this as well. If you're just ignoring damage like the Mohicans it's fine, but if you're redirecting anything then Special Attacks get wonky, so it should only work on normal.

I see the potential problems now (especially with the Roman Archers or other squads that combine their attacks). Thanks for clearing that up; I'll change it to only work against normal attacks.

Originally Posted by Kinseth

No, I think you are missing my point. Many opposing armies will be at such a severe disadvantage with that -1 attack dice that they will have no shot of winning the match.

Armies featuring Blade Gruts, Goblin Cutters etc... Will have 1 attack dice, facing Samurai's(Who's CS is now on steroids), or you have brought along high attack dice squad figures like Dreadguls or HSB's. You will have designed your army to compensate for the potential -1 attack. It is just too powerful and handicaps too many opposing armies.

I was unaware that you felt that other armies such as HSB or unbonded Dreadguls were able to ignore the penalty in addition to the Fearless immunities that you mentioned earlier, so sorry for the confusion.

I do not necessarily agree with that sentiment, though, since taking one of the 4-attack squads with Masha under the hopes that you'll face a low-attack melee squad isn't a safe bet, and HSB/Dreadguls/DCoT don't benefit from the Aura of Terror like the Samurai do. Trying to juggle two auras at once (assuming you take Raelin with Masha) is also OM intensive, and it might not be worth the ~3 squads that you're sacrificing to try and gear your army towards a specific niche. I have no problem with testing it, of course, but I think that Samurai would still be the best option to use with him.

That said, it's not like Goblin Cutters, Blade Gruts, or even Fyorlag Spiders can't do anything against Masha. Blades have disengage and great bonding heroes to engage Masha and/or Raelin to end the auras, and Cutters have Scurry and Mob Attack to help deal with Counterstrike and breaking through screens. Spiders can remove Order Markers from the screen without fear, and they have several bonded heroes like the Wyvern (who benefits from being in Masha's aura), Sujoah, or Quahon that can much more easily deal with the demon.

Masha definitely makes things harder on 2-attack melee figures, but they're not helpless. We've seen plenty of other figures in the past fulfill similar niches, and I don't think that this is outside the realm of something we could've seen in the official game.

Originally Posted by Kinseth

There is a reason why the C3V team moved away from this, I wouldn't try to make a case for it further, when the people judging this already nix'd the idea on their own designs.

Edit - I know you were not in the know on Gothlok's original design, but it should shed some light on why several are vocally against such a power. Take some time to reflect on it.

I greatly appreciate the extra insight, but urging someone not to argue for something because it's been discussed before behind closed doors feels inhibitive to discussion. I have no problem with listening to suggestions and feedback, but only if I understand the reasoning and can come to an agreement with it, which won't happen if I don't make a case for the other side.

I am giving Aura of Terror a lot of thought, especially due to all of this discussion so far. Prior feedback in my own thread and the 3FG thread has been primarily directed to past iterations of Burning Spite, so I greatly value everyone's perspective here on Aura of Terror as well. In time, I may come up with something that accomplishes the same effect that I like more, but that has not happened yet.

[Dad_Scaper]

The objection, as I see it, is that using a light-hitting melee army against him would just not be fun. It's not a question of whether you attack Raelin first, because you don't even need Raelin for this matchup to be a drag.

An attacker that normally rolls 3 attack dice will only get 2 against Masha, which will often whiff completely and will, on other occasions, likely be blocked by Masha's 3 defense dice. Masha's hefty 5 attack will keep the surrounding crowds pretty thin, which will in turn make it harder to maneuver for height or other terrain benefits against him. Even attacking him from range is risky, because of Burning Spite.

He would be the King of All Turtlers, and no fun to play against. Are the bad matchups actually hopeless? It doesn't matter, to me, because they just don't look fun to play.

[Kinseth]

My point on HSB and Dreadguls(I understand they will still get -1 attack), is that they are 4 attack dice figures(Now 3 in the aura) and can still dish out damage very well instead of Goblin Cutters going from 2 attack to 1. You'd design your army with that in mind.

[Leo Ultra]

What about this:

If Masha Shingai has killed at least one figure this round, figures within 4 spaces subtract one from their attack dice.

Or if you want to go all out with this, make the range of the aura equal to the number of figures he has killed so far in that game.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

The objection, as I see it, is that using a light-hitting melee army against him would just not be fun. It's not a question of whether you attack Raelin first, because you don't even need Raelin for this matchup to be a drag.

An attacker that normally rolls 3 attack dice will only get 2 against Masha, which will often whiff completely and will, on other occasions, likely be blocked by Masha's 3 defense dice. Masha's hefty 5 attack will keep the surrounding crowds pretty thin, which will in turn make it harder to maneuver for height or other terrain benefits against him. Even attacking him from range is risky, because of Burning Spite.

He would be the King of All Turtlers, and no fun to play against. Are the bad matchups actually hopeless? It doesn't matter, to me, because they just don't look fun to play.

Masha himself doesn't typically last very long, especially against squads. Most of my games have paired him with Raelin, but a couple of good hits (especially from melee) are all that's needed to take him out. I can definitely see the concern for units with 2 attack, but specifically calling out "figures with 3 or more attack" in the power doesn't feel like an elegant way of handling things, and designing only around that space results in a figure that isn't useful in other ones.

We've seen the original designers create units to improve on a unit's greatest strength before (even to the point of making hard counters. I don't think that SoulBorgs will have fun when playing against Repulsors, for example), regardless of smaller subsets of figures that might be impacted.

That said, the factor of fun is my primary concern. If players with a melee army feel like there is nothing that can be done against Masha, then that's my primary concern. So far Leo has been my most frequent opponent, and he's said that it doesn't feel overwhelming. I'm running a team event this weekend where I'll be taking Masha, so I'll be sure to ask everyone there how he feels to fight against.

Originally Posted by Kinseth

My point on HSB and Dreadguls(I understand they will still get -1 attack), is that they are 4 attack dice figures(Now 3 in the aura) and can still dish out damage very well instead of Goblin Cutters going from 2 attack to 1. You'd design your army with that in mind.

I understand. I still think that the Samurai are better options, though, because of Counterstrike (and the Kozuke/Tagawa Samurai can at least still do some damage as well despite the reduction). The 4-attack dice figures would be interesting to use with him, but I still think that they wouldn't be the best options (and I actually like it when units can be used in more builds than the conventional one intended).


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Leo Ultra

What about this:

If Masha Shingai has killed at least one figure this round, figures within 4 spaces subtract one from their attack dice.

Or if you want to go all out with this, make the range of the aura equal to the number of figures he has killed so far in that game.

If only I had suggested this to my roommate 10 minutes ago. At least let me flesh my ideas out before posting them.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Leo Ultra

What about this:

If Masha Shingai has killed at least one figure this round, figures within 4 spaces subtract one from their attack dice.

Or if you want to go all out with this, make the range of the aura equal to the number of figures he has killed so far in that game.

That's problematic. Memory mechanics are generally not good unless they have some means of tracking them, such as a marker. And powers that add new markers are not well-liked unless there's a really good reason for the marker.

[MrNobody]

What if you place the figures on his card when they’re destroyed?