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  #13  
Old January 20th, 2009, 11:11 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Onacara's "Kiss my ass, 4th Mass"



I will be playing this army at TempleCon during pick-up games so anyone who is coming wants to take a crack at knocking them out...BRING IT!!!!
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  #14  
Old January 21st, 2009, 09:33 AM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jexik View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matthias Maccabeus View Post
Man, I've read this thread like 4 times today and I just now got the Kenights of Weston...thanks for the shout out! (even though they should be the kenights of Maccabeus)
Yeah, I figured only about 10 people would get that. It makes sense to me.
It's got to be more than 10. Immediately after thinking that it was spelled wrong, I smiled and thought I would have spelled it differently.
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  #15  
Old January 21st, 2009, 09:55 AM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Dude, I've got it.

Nilfjaime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #16  
Old January 21st, 2009, 09:59 AM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Nice work on Tier 2. Here are a few more successful Northeast armies that fit your categories.

Non-KMA agents:
Microcorps x3, Laglor, Brunak, Rats x2 (Bengi, 5-0 and first place (?) at Saratoga Slugfest, 600pt unlimited start zones).

Deathstalkers/Marrden Hounds:
Deathstalkers x2, Syvarris, Kaemon Awa, Raelin (Me, 4-1 and second place at Fall Brawl, 500pts)
Marrden Hounds, Rats x2, Anubian Wolves x3, KMA (Loborocket, 4-1 and fourth place at the Fall Brawl) This one might fit better in "don't believe the hype".

Romana:
Romans x4, Marcus, Airborne Elite, Ne-Gok-Sa (Arp12, 4-0 and first place at Marlboro vs. The World)

Minions:
Minions x3, Murphy, Sullivan, Guilty ("Cowboys from Hell") (3-1 and third place at Marlboro vs. The World).
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  #17  
Old January 21st, 2009, 10:38 AM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Thanks for the armies, Ollie. Those also show some interesting variations on the themes that are still quite viable.

Here's a question to you, and anyone else following the thread:

Do any of the armies seem grossly out of place?

Are there armies in Tier 2 that can regularly compete with the majority of the Tier 1 armies and not virtually auto-lose to the others (i.e. are actually Tier 1)? Is Tier 2 too big? Should some drop down to Tier 3 and join the ranks of the slightly better bad armies, like MacDirks, Armocs, Badru w/ support, Elven Wizards w/ Raelin, etc?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #18  
Old January 21st, 2009, 10:52 AM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onacara View Post
Onacara's "Kiss my ass, 4th Mass"



I will be playing this army at TempleCon during pick-up games so anyone who is coming wants to take a crack at knocking them out...BRING IT!!!!
How do you deal with Zelrig with that army? I see lots of toasted redcoats.

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  #19  
Old January 21st, 2009, 10:53 AM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Spread out. When you've got 20 of them, you won't lose sleep over watching 6 get roasted in the first couple turns. Zelrig is good. I think people consistently over and underestimate him. Some people think he's game-breaking, others think he's useless. I think he's solid, but manageable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)
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  #20  
Old January 21st, 2009, 11:51 AM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Just a quick question for you:

You imply that the core of Ranged Vydar army includes Q9, Raelin, KMA, and Laglor. Then basically all other Vydar armies go to Tier 2, under the non-KMA armies, at least, as I read your groupings.

Where would you put other variations of the Q9/Raelin army, ones without KMA and Laglor? Such as the Q9/Raelin/Microcorp/Deathreavers army. Is that Tier 2, in your opinion?

Or is there a Tier 1, Q9/Raelin core army as well--in your view?

(Or did I just miss this in all the other armies listed?)

[EDIT: Just noticed that your A+ Junk army kind of fits this, since it is Q9, Rae, and Reavers--the question is that I've seen some great armies that play with this, adding in Q10, Microcorp, Nilf, Kaemon, Cyprien, etc. Many are A units, so it could just be an "A Junk amry" I suppose, but I think the Microcorp are a bit lower and my question is where do you believe is a Q9/Rae and/or Reaver core? If so, where do you put it? Just curious.]

BTW, to your other question, about missing armies or lowering armies, I'd say your "Don't believe the hype" takes up the slack pretty well. And, as you say, the Tier 2 armies have strong potential but also big holes, so it will always be hard to decide to move these around. Tier 2 is huge, but appropriately so--as you have said with Reavers or Raelin, lots of good units gain enough umph to be competitive at least some times.

Anyhow just my thoughts.

Last edited by 1Mmirg; January 21st, 2009 at 12:27 PM.
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  #21  
Old January 21st, 2009, 12:28 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

I believe that Q9/Raelin/KMA/Laglor is the best Vydar ranged core possible. It's really good, almost perfect. Unlike the Elven Wizards, each part is very powerful in and of itself.

People will usually take out Raelin first. While they're doing that, Q9 is killing your rats or the KMA are sniping whatever they want to from 9 range. Laglor's boost is huge here, and on some maps, you won't even need to adjust Raelin or Laglor in the opening round to start taking shots with the Krav.

If (this is actually a pretty big if) they take out Raelin, they'll probably want to deal with the Krav. Once 1 or 2 Krav are dead, you can go nuts with Q9 and kill whatever's left.

If they somehow manage to kill Q9, you've still got Laglor left. I'd say he's 80-90% as good in the cleanup role as Kaemon Awa is. He's rock solid.

Changing it at all is a significant change in either its power, or how it plays.

One of the armies that beat my Vanilla Ice in Day 1 of the Championship this year was this one played by Eirikr:

4x Deathreavers 160
Major Q9 340
KMA 440
Raelin 520

I'd classify this as a Rat-Podge, or maybe even A+ Junk before I'd call it Vydar Ranged. It was on my list of 25 brainstormed armies,* and I called it Douchenozzle. It's still a Tier 1 army, no doubt about it.

He had more rats than me, and better defense. Despite the fact that I won the initiative in the first round, an order marker gaffe I made cost me the control of the fixed Attack glyph. His rats and Krav scared the crap out of me, but one lucky shot of 5v5 from Q9 at 8 range (4 skulls v. 0 shields) against my Nilfheim took the wind out of my sails and gave me no chance of winning.

I'm not sure if a Microcorp army would be as good, but the MCA are one squad that I'm wondering if I'm underestimating... but they can be really map dependent. 2 attack sucks if you can't get height. (To answer your question, I think that Raelin, MCA, Rats, and Q9 would just be a rat podge variant. Pretty much anything with 2-3x Rats and ranged would be a rat podge. Call it Three R's if you like: Raelin, Rats, and Ranged).

*Note that Vanilla Ice, or "Stingers/Nilf" was the first on my list. The 1st and 2nd place armies at the tourney were also on it. I didn't even make anyone sign an NDA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fomox View Post
(I've also played many matches with great, fun people who were using Q9. So using Q9 doesn't make you a tool. But being a tool sure seems to make you use Q9.)

Last edited by Jexik; January 21st, 2009 at 12:59 PM.
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  #22  
Old January 21st, 2009, 12:57 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Thanks for your thoughts. The army that I have enjoyed most is the Rae/Q9/Q10/Reavers (at x2 you have 490, add Isamu for 500, Marcu for 510, or both for 520; at x3 you have 530, again add Isamu for the 540 that has become popular, etc.). It is a fun army, very solid (each unit definitely holds its weight), just limited by being centered around two somewhat redundant double-base units. Nonetheless, a kick to play and I've found competitive with most everything.

Always enjoy your work, Jexik, can't rep you again, but thanks for sharing your insights. Excellent, always excellent.

BTW, noting this wasn't in the Injex and feeling it is an excellent look at the state of competitive play currently (and showcases just how much variety exists, even at a competitive level, in HS), I added it to the Index, plus a few others things. Thanks!

Last edited by 1Mmirg; January 21st, 2009 at 01:16 PM.
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  #23  
Old January 21st, 2009, 01:52 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

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Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Marrden Hounds, Rats x2, Anubian Wolves x3, KMA (Loborocket, 4-1 and fourth place at the Fall Brawl) This one might fit better in "don't believe the hype".
Thanks for the tip of the cap Ollie. I think my army fits better into the "Don't Believe the Hype" category better than Marden Hounds/Deathstalkers. I used the Marden Hounds in this build as a "cruise missle" type attack. Sent out fast directly into the enemy lines in hopes of taking down some squad numbers and then stopping on a big hero taking some life from them While wolves waited for the "big roll".

Correction I only had rat x 1.5 (starting zone restrictions.)

I know I could have beaten Onacara's 10th that day too if it were not for 3 STRAIGHT rolls of 1 for Marden Hound movement. I never left my start zone.

Live by the d20, die by the d20.

In fact I came up with this army specifically to leverage the "luck" of the d20 after comment Ollie made in the thread about experienced players vs in-experienced players and the roll of luck. I have always had trouble getting to the top tier at tournaments. The better players always seemed to best me. This time I decided to try and level the playing field for myself by injecting a little luck into the equation to make up for my sub-par playing abilities.

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  #24  
Old January 21st, 2009, 01:53 PM
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Re: Cookie Cutter Army Discussion and Tiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie View Post
Nice work on Tier 2. Here are a few more successful Northeast armies that fit your categories.

Non-KMA agents:
Microcorps x3, Laglor, Brunak, Rats x2 (Bengi, 5-0 and first place (?) at Saratoga Slugfest, 600pt unlimited start zones).
Bengi did win the tourney, but I think he went 4-1, lost to Kinseth if I remember correctly.

EDIT: Yep, here's his Battle Reports... lost to Kinseth.

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