HexScape

[Lyrgard]

I plan to release HexScape 1.0.0-beta, the first public version with multiplayer activated on the 20th of August. Prepare yourself for some MS1 experience, a trip back in memory.

[qt.bangerang]

Can't wait!

[ScottyZ]

Took me a couple days to read through all of this, what a journey.

So, I have a couple questions that I don't think I saw answered...

These are mostly aimed at Lyrgard, but anyone that knows is welcome to chime in.

- What if 2 players don't have the same version of a map? Does the program verify that the maps are identical or is the resulting game just... interesting?

- Can more than 2 players play at once?

- If I already have "figures" as .obj files can I essentially make my own custom units? Along those lines I'm assuming everyone in a game must have all the same assets (i.e. my .obj file for my custom unit for weirdness to not result?

- Is terrain going to be as easy to add as units? Running with my earlier question about figures I also have my own .obj files of buildings and other terrain, could I add these?

- Will you (or someone?) be creating a central repository for all the various assets?

More soon, have to run.

[ScottyZ]

Ok, found a few spare moments...

I was thinking about this software and how it might be useful for playing other games over the internet. Foe example in the past I've used my HS tiles for rpg's like D&D.

The problem with using this is that portions of the map that the players shouldn't be able to see would be visible. Can you envision any way that a game could be played without the entire map being visible?

This might also be interesting for other skirmish games where you can't see your opponents units until you've made visual contact.

[Lyrgard]

I'm, for now, the sole developer of HexScape, so I guess no one can answer those better than me (but I do have great people that help me with the art or the asset, by testing, or just by asking questions, like you did !)

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

- What if 2 players don't have the same version of a map? Does the program verify that the maps are identical or is the resulting game just... interesting?

In multiplayer mode, one of the player create the game with one of his/her map file. The players that join the game don't need any map file, the data for the map is sent to them.

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

- Can more than 2 players play at once?

currently, no. But it is just an artificial limit I put, for now. It'd need some testing, but all should be ready to allow more than 2 players per game, both in the client and the server

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

- If I already have "figures" as .obj files can I essentially make my own custom units? Along those lines I'm assuming everyone in a game must have all the same assets (i.e. my .obj file for my custom unit for weirdness to not result?

Yes, anyone can make his/her own custom as long as they have the 3D model for that. And yes, you'll need to share that custom to the others players you want to play with. If you don't, an error will occur for them when you'll load your army. The version that will be release include an "import asset" feature, allowing you to share your custom in a packaged form (basically a .zip file, I'll explain that more in detail later), and for them to import it in their HexScape assets

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

- Is terrain going to be as easy to add as units? Running with my earlier question about figures I also have my own .obj files of buildings and other terrain, could I add these?

The answer is yes and no. HexScape does not make a difference about figures or terrains, at least not at the 3D object level. In your asset, you have a folder with all the 3D models avalaible, with figure, terrains, whatever all at the same level. Then, you have a folder for storing cards definition. Those definitions states what 3D model to use for the figure of the card. So it'll be easy to made a new .obj avalaible to HexScape. The problem is the map loading feature. Currently, it loads map from .hsc files. When it encounter a terrain piece, it maps it to a hard coded 3d Object Id. To add custom terrain piece, their is three solutions :
- add support for this terrain in VS, and add the correct mapping to a 3D object id in HexScape
- make a custom map format that allow custom terrain and tell HexScape their id. (this custom map format could be refering to a VS map file and only add the custom terrain, for instance.)
- make a map editor in HexScape

I have plan to support custom terrain (I know C3G players would love some building !), but I'll have to put some thoughts on it. If you have idea, you're more than welcome to share them.

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

- Will you (or someone?) be creating a central repository for all the various assets?

Thats a tricky question. I don't really know where it stands regarding to IP. The answer is probably yes. There will be ways to get Heroscape assets, allowing you to play Heroscape on HexScape. But the asset won't be directly distributed packaged with HexScape. I guess such a repository would take the form of a thread with links to download the assets, assets that would be hosted on file sharing sites.

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

I was thinking about this software and how it might be useful for playing other games over the internet. Foe example in the past I've used my HS tiles for rpg's like D&D.

HexScape can definitively be used to play other game than Heroscape. In fact, I have plan to allow to separate assets for differents game, as well as to support more than one multiplayer room, to have a room per game. The code was done with that in mind, and would need little effort to make it work.

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

The problem with using this is that portions of the map that the players shouldn't be able to see would be visible. Can you envision any way that a game could be played without the entire map being visible?

Hum... Good question. With problem like that, I like to think back at the subtitle of HexScape : "Your virtual Hex board". HexScape is an Hex board, just virtual. How would you implement that in real life ? You cannot make a "fog of war" in real life, right ? If you play a game of D&D, the GM could add the monsters only when the player can see them, for instance.

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

This might also be interesting for other skirmish games where you can't see your opponents units until you've made visual contact.

HexScape only intend to help you play game that can be played in real life. At least for the foreseable futur.


Very interesting questions ! Thanks you. Do not hesitate to ask some more if you have any !

[Lyrgard]

Also, the public release should come with a little surprise

[ScottyZ]

Thanks for the speedy response.

Thinking about custom terrain elements; if they are treated like figures why would they need to be added via VS? Couldn't one of the players add them at the beginning of the game?

Also, can 2 figures occupy the same hex? If not, couldn't the same mechanism be used to keep figures from being "in" a terrain element?

I was also wondering what happens when a 2-hex figure attempts to occupy uneven ground? Is one "foot" in the air, or inside a hex piece?

As for how I played Roy's without the players viewing areas of the map they hadn't visited... I used a large piece of foamcore board to cover what hadn't been revealed. And as you said placed monsters/npc's/etc on the board as needed. Perhaps to simulate that there could be a plane that covered the board and was controlled sort of like a figure by the GM. Most 3D modelling programs include a plane as one of the primitives. I would also be happy to provide one as an .object file if that would help.

I would like to offer my help with other modelling you might need but time is a problem as all of mine is currently spoken for. I will in all likelyhood offer up some custom figure .obj and .mtl files in the future though. I am interested in what I read about making 3D objects from photographs so I may be able to help out there because if I'm going to test out the program it might as well be with HS figures. I just need to build a light tent rig and a turntable. Is anyone coordinating that effort? It would be a waste to have figures duplicated?

Oh, thought of another question: is there a limit on how many figures can be in a squad?

That's all for now.

[DanieLoche]

I can answer some of these questions... ^^

Terrain elements could be added like figures, but it implies some efforts :
- have the 3D model for the terrain element, that is centered correctly to fit in a map. (probably a little complicared for pieces like RttFF walls I suppose). Then, don't forget to add the id of this element on your army, to be able to add it to the map.
Then, you should take care of not moving the terrain element, and he uses some place on the Army Panel...
Just an idea, perhaps putting an option to allow users to add figures to the game. And these figures would be added to another tab (as is it was a "player 3"), containing every figures that could be moved by everybody.

Concerning 2-hex figures, they are considered as 1-hex figures, and the 2nde part of the base is placed one an hex following the orientation you choose for the figure. (so the figure is placed only depending on the position you choose for the "front" of the base.

For the areas, what about cutting the terrain in multiple small terrains, and load each part when necessary ?

I would like to offer my help with other modelling you might need but time is a problem as all of mine is currently spoken for. I will in all likelyhood offer up some custom figure .obj and .mtl files in the future though. I am interested in what I read about making 3D objects from photographs so I may be able to help out there because if I'm going to test out the program it might as well be with HS figures. I just need to build a light tent rig and a turntable. Is anyone coordinating that effort? It would be a waste to have figures duplicated?

Lyrgard is the moderator of a subforum where we're doing every 3D model. (you should have missed one of the last pages of this thread ^^) If you are able to help us, just ask to join !

And to finish, no limit for the number of figures per squads. As there is no limits in real life.

[ScottyZ]

I like the 3rd player idea, that way things don't become accidently moved.

I'm not sure what changing out small bits of map would play like. If you could dynamically add to the existing map that would be ideal but I don't think is possible from what I've been reading. The problems would come up when some players enter a new room and others stay behind. Or keeping marching order when maps change.

Another question occurs to me: is there any sort of collision detection to limit where large figures will fit? For example, I have a 1-hex wide pathway with 10-hex tall walls on either side... can a dragon still fit there or will the wings be in the way?

I saw the bit about the subforum, I just don't know if the quality of my output will be good enough. Also, does anyone know how Hasbro/WOTC will react to all of the figures being "reproduced"? They are still their IP afterall.

[DanieLoche]

Another question occurs to me: is there any sort of collision detection to limit where large figures will fit? For example, I have a 1-hex wide pathway with 10-hex tall walls on either side... can a dragon still fit there or will the wings be in the way?

The softwave don't check for collisions if I remember well. But you'll see quite easily if you figure fit or not. ^^

[Lyrgard]

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

Thanks for the speedy response.

My pleasure

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

Thinking about custom terrain elements; if they are treated like figures why would they need to be added via VS? Couldn't one of the players add them at the beginning of the game?

They are not treated like figure. In fact, HexScape doesn't have the notion of figure, only 3dObject and Cards. Decors and figures are just 3D objects. Card just define what 3d objects to use to show the figures. Currently, there is only two way to add 3d object to the scene : by loading a map and by loading an army of cards, that allow to place figures.
- Loading of the map is done from VS map file, so obviously, only decors known by VS can be added
- Loading a card an placing figure display 3d Objects with special features : they can be selected and moved arround

Custom decors doesn't fit in any of those category, because you can't add them to VS, and you don't want to be able to select and move them arround when placed.

Hum... I think I'll just need to add a "Add a custom decors" button somewhere to do that. Not too hard to do.
I'll do it. Not just now, but I'll definitely do it.
DanieLoche is right when he say that the only way for now would be to make a pseudo card with a pseudo figure that would be a decor.

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

Also, can 2 figures occupy the same hex? If not, couldn't the same mechanism be used to keep figures from being "in" a terrain element?

I was also wondering what happens when a 2-hex figure attempts to occupy uneven ground? Is one "foot" in the air, or inside a hex piece?

Yes and no. If you take only single based figures into consideration, 2 figures cannot occupy the same hex.
For double spaced figure, in the software point of view, they occupy only one hex. It just happens that their model is larger than one hex, but that's all. HexScape doesn't know if a figure is double spaced or not. So yes, you can currently place a double hex figure so that one "foot" is in the air, or inside an hex piece or decors. The same apply to decors. They are attached to only one hex. but they are not checked to see if a figure can stand somewhere. I did that because HexScape has no way to know if a figure is allowed to go into a decors or not. Like, if you made a decor for high grass, you may still want the figure to be able to go there. To support that sort of thing, I'd need to add properties to decors. It'll come someday (with custom decors, to specify where figure can land on the decors, for instance in case of building for C3G).

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

As for how I played Roy's without the players viewing areas of the map they hadn't visited... I used a large piece of foamcore board to cover what hadn't been revealed. And as you said placed monsters/npc's/etc on the board as needed. Perhaps to simulate that there could be a plane that covered the board and was controlled sort of like a figure by the GM. Most 3D modelling programs include a plane as one of the primitives. I would also be happy to provide one as an .object file if that would help.

Well, I'll add that to the list of feature request, but it is not high in my list for now. I'd prefer, as DanieLoche said, some sort of modulable map with parts you could hide or show at will.

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

I would like to offer my help with other modelling you might need but time is a problem as all of mine is currently spoken for. I will in all likelyhood offer up some custom figure .obj and .mtl files in the future though. I am interested in what I read about making 3D objects from photographs so I may be able to help out there because if I'm going to test out the program it might as well be with HS figures. I just need to build a light tent rig and a turntable. Is anyone coordinating that effort? It would be a waste to have figures duplicated?

Yes, there is a group here doing just that.

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

Oh, thought of another question: is there a limit on how many figures can be in a squad?

No limit

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

I'm not sure what changing out small bits of map would play like. If you could dynamically add to the existing map that would be ideal but I don't think is possible from what I've been reading. The problems would come up when some players enter a new room and others stay behind. Or keeping marching order when maps change.

Well, I develop HexScape, so anything I want possible can be made ^_^ I could easilly see a meta map made of many VS file, and you could switch between maps. Or I could combine them into one map, and you could choose the ones to display or to hide. I'll add it as a feature request.

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

Another question occurs to me: is there any sort of collision detection to limit where large figures will fit? For example, I have a 1-hex wide pathway with 10-hex tall walls on either side... can a dragon still fit there or will the wings be in the way?

Currently, no collision check are done. Collision checks can be tricky with flexible decors like bush, for instance. Well, not tricky to do, tricky because it could prevent a move that could take place in real life.

Originally Posted by ScottyZ

I saw the bit about the subforum, I just don't know if the quality of my output will be good enough. Also, does anyone know how Hasbro/WOTC will react to all of the figures being "reproduced"? They are still their IP afterall.

To be frank, we totally don't know. They stoped distributing Heroscape, so perhaps they don't care. But that's why HexScape won't be distributed with Heroscape asset inside. You'd have to get the assets separatly and import them into HexScape. If WotC asks us to stop distributing their IP, we'll stop doing that. But I won't be responsible if someone continue to do it. And I'll definitively continue to develop HexScape.

[ScottyZ]

I love the idea behind this project and would like to help out. If you'd like to put me down for the creating figures team I will give it a go and if you're not happy with my results you won't have to use my figures.