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  #757  
Old May 15th, 2020, 05:16 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
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Originally Posted by Porkins View Post
Thanks, but I think I'll just for now. I'm not sure there's enough support for the clone of C3V type project you are envisioning...particularly with everybody having different goals and a different vision from your own.
You made several sweeping statements there that I'm not sure you can actually defend. Why do you think my goals and vision are different from "everybody" else's?

I'm not envisioning a "clone of C3V type project." I am thinking something a lot closer to the AotV project.
That's fair, "everybody" is not the right word. Maybe "many others"? Looking back at the history of the project, and even the more recent comments, it's clear that there was and probably still is disagreement about even basic aspects of the project. Some examples: how powerful should figures be, how should the project be managed, is this a "fun" project or a "tournament ready" project, complexity level of designs, definition of 100% compatible (I am seeing comments related to that topic here, after HoME is many years down the road). If you recall, that discussion (which you started) almost killed HoSS in our early days.

I also admit that I'm not intimately familiar with C3V's process and I'm not the least bit familiar with AotV (??) but you are talking about ERBs and Design Teams and Playtest and Art Department...all of which are part of the C3V process. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks like there are about 5 interested people here, not teams of them.

I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk because that's not my intention, just trying to express what I observe here. And my observation is that you have a very well defined and ambitious vision of this project (that not everyone agrees with), but that your implementation of that vision is (or was) heavy handed and uncompromising.
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  #758  
Old May 15th, 2020, 06:22 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by Porkins View Post
I also admit that I'm not intimately familiar with C3V's process and I'm not the least bit familiar with AotV (??) but you are talking about ERBs and Design Teams and Playtest and Art Department...all of which are part of the C3V process. Maybe I'm wrong, but it looks like there are about 5 interested people here, not teams of them.
I think an ERB (even if you don't call it that) is critical to success of a project like this. C3G has one, C3V has one, AotV has one by another name. Maybe HoSS doesn't have one? I don't know how HoSS works. An ERB is what keeps the project as a whole "on the rails" and working towards the stated goals. I think it's even more important to have an ERB if your process overall is going to be more democratic and open to the public.

It is nice to have dedicated volunteers for design, playtesting, and art. That's not realistic though, which is why I will be proposing autonomous teams more like what AotV has. We will probably be publicizing the project some more to get more volunteers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porkins View Post
... I'm not the least bit familiar with AotV (??)...
Arena of the Valkyrie is a project to make Heroscape cards for all the Arena of the Planeswalker minis. The goal isn't to convert the Magic characters to Heroscape, but to re-use the minis to make something completely new; like C3V might. Here is the Intro/FAQ thread. They have a model that's pretty open and democratic without suffering from the free-for-all effect you see in projects like the Boot Camp of Valhalla. The end goal is very adjacent to C3V, with an emphasis on acceptance by VC and on making the AotP sets into good "master set" intros for new Heroscape players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porkins View Post
That's fair, "everybody" is not the right word. Maybe "many others"? Looking back at the history of the project, and even the more recent comments, it's clear that there was and probably still is disagreement about even basic aspects of the project. Some examples: how powerful should figures be, how should the project be managed, is this a "fun" project or a "tournament ready" project, complexity level of designs, definition of 100% compatible (I am seeing comments related to that topic here, after HoME is many years down the road). If you recall, that discussion (which you started) almost killed HoSS in our early days.
...
I hope I'm not coming across as a jerk because that's not my intention, just trying to express what I observe here. And my observation is that you have a very well defined and ambitious vision of this project (that not everyone agrees with), but that your implementation of that vision is (or was) heavy handed and uncompromising.
I appreciate your observations; I explicitly asked for observations above, so you're good.

I recognize that we may not have 100% alignment here, which is what we're discussing. I think it's important that we align on an overall goal/vision. Once that is in place we can set up procedures that keep one heavy handed and uncompromising individual from sinking the ship.

I come at it from this angle: Most heroscape players in this community play vanilla heroscape. If they're into customs, they probably include VC and maybe a smattering of other customs here and there. This is how I would describe myself. I want to make customs that are accessible to the "least common denominator" in this sense.

I have a bunch of C3G figures and cards... and I play with them once every few years. In general, when people play C3G it is C3G-only. I get the same sense from HoSS but I'm a lot less certain of that (I have some HoSS figures but have never printed the cards or played them).

My goal for any custom project I am part of is to make figures that I can feel good putting on the table next to all the classic and VC (and soon AotV) figures I play with month-to-month (or even persuading dok to allow at our tournaments). If the project isn't making customs that meet that criteria, why are they a project instead of individual people with customs threads? What's the point of putting all this work into playtesting and art and editing and haggling back and forth over design if people are only going to use your cards when they go into the special realm of playing with only your cards?

The more customs projects that have these common goals top of mind, the more customs projects will be theoretically compatible with each other. When there is a shared baseline (the classic canon) then the whole community wins.

This is my but also the thing that has kept me active on these projects for 8 years now.

All of this probably explains the conflict I had with HoSS back in the day. I wanted Alistair MacDirk, Martial LaHire, Aragorn, and Luke Skywalker to all feel right on the battlefield together. HoSS cards don't give me that sense. HoSS feels like a slightly different game; not necessarily in a bad way. After all, C3G also feels like a different game and I think pretty highly of what they've done.

I want HoME (just like VC and AotV) to feel like an extension of the same game I know and love; not like a new edition that's a little more complex.

The sidenote here is that VC feels a bit of an obligation to push the boundaries every so often and expand the canon. Any of us can point to plenty of examples (including some that are not so obvious). I prefer to leave that to them because it is harder work than just sticking to what's already established, and these projects are hard enough already.

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  #759  
Old May 15th, 2020, 06:27 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

Also wanted to finish addressing Splash.

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Firstly, consensus should be valued above all else for any successful project; for here, it should preferably be had before play-testing.
I completely disagree. The corollary to "perfect is the enemy of the good" is something more or less like "consensus is the enemy of success" (there's probably a better word than "success" here, but I hate the word "progress").

I think the rest of the comments I have now addressed, either directly or indirectly.

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  #760  
Old May 15th, 2020, 07:00 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

Alright, I couldn't help myself. Here is my counter-proposal. Let me know what you think @infectedsloth @White Knight @Splash @OrcElfArmyOne @TREX @boromir96 @Good Pig @KingZombie



The following is a blend of the Arena of the Valkyrie, C3V, old HoME, and the democratic free-for-all proposed by WK. This is a working draft, not a stone tablet, so I view most of it as up for debate. The key principles to me are that
  1. There must be a core group of people (which I'll call the Council) dedicated to keeping the group as a whole "on the rails" and in line with the goals of the project. The Council must be large enough that one person can't stall it out. Five seems like a good number (and is what I used below), but three could also work.
  2. It must be easy to start participating in a variety of ways.
  3. Designs should be owned by a group of people (which I'll call a Fellowship), not just a single person, and that group should have a lot of authority and autonomy over the design vs. the rest of HoME (including the Council). I suggest five people, but whatever number it should always be odd (so that tiebreakers are rarely needed).

To that end, anyone can brainstorm, playtest, and vote on public votes (which are forming Fellowships and determining which cards that Fellowship will work on). Anyone who runs a pair or more of playtests can vote in the playtesting phases. The "public" is still discouraged from free-for-all posting in unit threads to keep them from getting too noisy. In general, posting in a thread for a particular unit is reserved for the Fellowship that owns that unit and for anyone on the Council.

The Council's powers are actually pretty light; each Fellowship must have some council members in it, but within that Fellowship they have no special rights and hopefully will be outnumbered by 3 non-Council members. This puts a practical cap on how many Fellowships we can have at a time, but if we only have a few volunteers, we'll probably only have one Fellowship at a time anyway. The only "power" the Council has is the permission to post in any of the threads and a simple majority vote (in addition to the larger common vote) in the final review. With 5 Council members that means that staunch opposition from 3 members will stop a unit from passing that final phase. In practice this should be pretty rare.

The Fellowship formation is pretty easy to get into and allows people to bow out when they're done if they want. Being in a Fellowship is also nice because you don't have to process *all* the designs at once; just the ones in your Fellowship.

I did not detail the brainstorm -> design process very well, but I think it is similar to what WK was envisioning. People throw ideas out and then there is voting.





Goals
1. Our purpose is to create HeroScape custom units based upon the works of J.R.R. Tolkien that are 100% compatible with each other and all of the official Heroscape License as well as its extensions in Valhalla Customs.

2. For each custom design to accurately reflect the official Heroscape game aesthetic: balanced units that are relatively simple and easy to understand. HoME units should feel equally at home in a self-contained set together or blended with Hasbro/VC units.

3. To have each Custom Design be collaboratively created by our HoME members by allowing each design to be worked on by each group within the HoME, while encouraging support, good ideas, and productive effort from the entire Heroscapers.com community.

4. Maintain the position of several core members who are enthusiastic, well respected, and active Heroscapers.com members.


How to Contribute
1. BRAINSTORM! Anyone is welcome to contribute ideas in the brainstorming thread. Brainstorming is a "primordial soup" phase and most ideas are ultimately discarded, but all ideas are welcome.

2. VOTE! Anyone can vote on Fellowship formation as well as on any design they have submitted at least two playtests for.

3. DESIGN! Nominate yourself (or someone else in the community) to participate on a lead team.

4. PLAYTEST! This is the critical piece for all custom projects, and where volunteers are *most needed*. You can find the playtesting thread here <insert link>.

5. ART! We will need some people with photoshop or other photo editing skills to create cards when they are finished.


Membership
You become an HoME member by getting nominated to join a Fellowship and then getting voted on to the Fellowship. You may nominate yourself.

Fellowships are composed of 5 people and are formed around several cards (typically 2-4) collectively referred to as their "pod." At least two of the people must be HoME Council members. Fellowship and pod composition are both determined by a public vote.

When a Fellowship member is absent for more than one month or steps down, a replacement for them is voted onto the Fellowship following the same process that was used to form the Fellowship.

You remain an HoME member as long as you are operating on a Fellowship. After the final unit in your pod is voted through to completion you remain an honorary HoME member with all voting rights for the next six months.

The Council is composed of
<member list>
The role of the Council is to keep the project on track towards the stated goals above. Unlike other HoME members, who may come and go as their Fellowships complete their pods, Council members should be in the project "for the long haul," since they have a duty to preserve the project and steer it towards its long-term goals. Council members do not have any special voting privileges except as outlined in the Final Review phase of the Design process, but they are welcome to comment on any card in any pod at any time.

When a member steps down from the Council, their replacement is selected by nominations of respected Heroscapers members and current HoME members and decided by vote of all HoME members.


General Voting Protocols
Votes last for 72 hours. On any votes open to the general public or the general HoME membership,
a) At least 60% of all HoME members must vote.
b) At least 50% of all votes cast must be affirmative for the vote to pass.


Brainstorming
Rough unit concepts are brainstormed by any and all. From these brainstorms, unit designs are nominated to join a pod, and frequently the authors of the brainstorm are nominated as Fellowship members for that pod.


Design Process
A thread is created for each card in a pod. The cards then move through various phases as follows. At each phase, unless specified otherwise, a majority vote by the Fellowship is required to move forward. Votes are initiated by Council members on the Fellowship. 100% of Fellowship members must vote on the cards in their pod, and regardless of who else is voting, a card should not move forward without a simple majority of the Fellowship voting affirmative (so the playtesting phases, for instance, require simple majorities from both the Fellowship and the larger voting populace).

Each phase should generally be handled by the Fellowship. The public should refrain from excessive comments, debate, etc. but are welcome to make passing remarks.

1. DESIGN PHASE: Fellowship members harden the design, using ideas from brainstorming or coming up with new ones as necessary.

2. EDITING PHASE: The editing checklist is run for the unit, and any potential issues are identified and brought up. The Fellowship must either resolve substantial issues and pass the Editing check, or return to the Design Phase.

3. BALANCE TESTING PHASE: All Fellowship members will run playtests for the unit (other HoME members and community members are also encouraged to run playtests), prioritizing its individual balance against classic Heroscape figures. In addition to the Fellowship members, anyone who has run at least two playtests for the unit in this phase may vote in this phase.

4. COMPATIBILITY TESTING PHASE: Similar to the Balance Testing Phase, this stage focuses on collecting playtests, but prioritizes testing with HoME units to ensure they feel right together. This would also be a good time to run HoME scenarios once they are available. Testing here is less intensive than the Balance Testing Phase. Once the Fellowship is satisfied with the unit they can vote to move forward to the final review. In addition to the Fellowship members, anyone who has run at least two playtests for the unit in this phase may vote in this phase.

5. FINAL REVIEW: This is where all HoME members will vote on whether the design should is complete, looking at the unit on its own as well as its place within the set as a whole. In addition to a vote from all HoME members as described in General Voting Protocols, this vote requires a simple majority from Council members.

6. ART PHASE: Once a unit enters the Art Phase, the design should be completely finalized and ready for release. Once the card is made, it will be reviewed by all HoME members for any errors or typos. After all of these are fixed, one last simple majority vote will be made to officially release the unit.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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  #761  
Old May 15th, 2020, 07:18 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

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Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
I have a bunch of C3G figures and cards... and I play with them once every few years. In general, when people play C3G it is C3G-only. I get the same sense from HoSS but I'm a lot less certain of that (I have some HoSS figures but have never printed the cards or played them).

---

All of this probably explains the conflict I had with HoSS back in the day. I wanted Alistair MacDirk, Martial LaHire, Aragorn, and Luke Skywalker to all feel right on the battlefield together. HoSS cards don't give me that sense. HoSS feels like a slightly different game; not necessarily in a bad way. After all, C3G also feels like a different game and I think pretty highly of what they've done.
These statements aren't very fair to make together. How can you know that they don't feel right together when you have never played, or really looked at the cards?

The issue way back when, was that you objected to the creation and use of the Galactic Empire and the Rebel Alliance factions instead of classic generals. You demanded that we use classic generals or they wouldn't be "100% compatible."

However, having Darth Vader belong to Utgar, who doesn't exist in Star Wars mythos, would have been a theme break. Your objection didn't have to do with Alastair and Luke not "feeling right" together, because at that time nothing was released and you hadn't played it. It was 100% about your personal definition of 100% compatible, and I see echoes of that exchange in this thread.

With all that said, we will be the first to admit that HoSS has a slightly different meta-game. Most figures are ranged, there are Force Powers that (gasp) can be performed without first passing a d20 check, and no references to Jandar, or Ullar. However, all HoSS figures are playtested with Classic (and VC) as well as with other HoSS figures; all can be played together.

HoSS is still the same game we all love with the same rules, with awesome terrain, and with sweet, painted miniatures, AND our own Star Wars galaxy (which is far, far away) is still intact and not Vallhalla-ized. This would be my wish for Middle Earthers, not a Sauron card who follows Utgar. Sauron IS Utgar! I'd want Middle Earthers to retain their own universe built inside of the confines of Heroscape rules.

With VC it's different. You can create things which reference Jandar in power text or belong to Aquila or Einar because you are creating characters, powers, background bios, EVERYTHING from the ground up. You are creating them inside the Heroscape universe, not porting them over from an already existing universe. For example: Hasbro's Marvel does not use Valhalla generals...it's an already existing universe.

All this to say, whatever the group's goal is, just make sure everyone agrees to that goal and it is succinctly stated so that newcomers understand it too. And don't force the group to bend to one person's goals via un-ending forum posts and debate...that's the killing blow that almost killed HoSS.


Quote:
Originally Posted by capsocrates View Post
The sidenote here is that VC feels a bit of an obligation to push the boundaries every so often and expand the canon.
This attitude has always bothered me. C3V and VC do great work, and I have some figures and cards that I enjoy using. But it strikes me as presumptuous and quite arrogant that they have anointed themselves as canon, even numbering releases starting at Wave 14.
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  #762  
Old May 15th, 2020, 08:14 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

Being canon is one of the goals of the group now that Heroscape is exclusively in the hands of the community and, frankly, there are no reasonable contenders for the designation. Not only that, but the group sought the blessing of the official designers as part of its creation and received it. I believe they are also the only customs grouping widely played at Heroscape tournaments.

You may dislike that anointment of being canon, but it's not presumptuous, it's earned.

Other than that, I agree with your post. Compatibility is a two-way street. Trying to accomplish it on your end without the express cooperation of the other end is a fool's errand and an unnecessary barrier/source of frustration for any group.

That said, I wish y'all the best with this one.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #763  
Old May 15th, 2020, 08:21 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

I did some catch up reading, I think I like where this reboot is going. I've been working on my private lotr customs but I'd like to move into a group setting as well.
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Old May 15th, 2020, 08:44 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

@capsocrates ,

Before I comment on your proposal, let me ask this question: What if we only find 5 people TOTAL willing to dedicate themselves to the project?

Your proposal would make them all council members, with not enough non-council members to start a fellowship. Then the project would stall and die.
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Old May 15th, 2020, 08:52 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
@capsocrates ,

Before I comment on your proposal, let me ask this question: What if we only find 5 people TOTAL willing to dedicate themselves to the project?

Your proposal would make them all council members, with not enough non-council members to start a fellowship. Then the project would stall and die.
Then why couldn't you just have the five council members form the only fellowship?

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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Old May 15th, 2020, 09:18 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Knight View Post
@capsocrates ,

Before I comment on your proposal, let me ask this question: What if we only find 5 people TOTAL willing to dedicate themselves to the project?

Your proposal would make them all council members, with not enough non-council members to start a fellowship. Then the project would stall and die.
I think this question is answered by what I said about not being set in stone blah blah. I intentionally worded it that a fellowship could be 100% composed of council members. I also said that the council could be as small as 3; especially if overall participation is low.

But I think that's pessimistic. Once we advertise on discord and Heroscapers I think we will have more people. AotV has three different "fellowships" going, around 5+ council members, and each of their "fellowships" is 5 people + 2 council members. We should be able to draw similar interest, give or take.

Edit: people on this site like making customs. Some people will realize that community projects are more work and bow out, but that's why I included the provision about replacing members.


EDIT#2: The point of the proposal is to *not* let the project stall and die. If it seems to be stalling out, it would be on the Council/all members to amend the working agreements to make it work.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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Last edited by capsocrates; May 15th, 2020 at 11:56 PM.
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Old May 15th, 2020, 09:22 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

I also think many of the goals should be determined by public polls that we heavily advertise and leave open a long time. We can determine Valhalla generals vs custom generals, simple powers vs detailed and complex powers, compatibility with classic vs self contained universe, etc.

The Council would then be responsible for maintaining those goals.

I have strong opinions about each of those things, but the project should serve the larger community. Some people (including me) may see the results and decide not to participate after all. And that would be fine.

Your custom probably has too much Defense.
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Old May 15th, 2020, 09:44 PM
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Re: HoME General Discussion Thread

I'm busy at the moment, so only had time for a quick brushthrough. Alternate cards for home play is a "duh" that hadn't come to my mind. I hadn't meant earlier to give any sort of ultimatum if it came across that way, merely just a direction that would more gauge my interest.
Anyways, overall looks good. I think there is really potential for the group to get some fun, balanced, and/or competitive HoME cards made and I'd be happy to be part of the design team at the helm.
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