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  #193  
Old September 5th, 2018, 04:55 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

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Originally Posted by superfrog View Post
COUNT RAYMOND: Devout Leadership
As figures with teh Dzu-Teh Devout personality, Cathar Spearmen may benefit from Count Raymond's DEVOUT LEADERSHIP movement bonus.
Fixed.

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  #194  
Old September 5th, 2018, 05:01 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

I fixed it, although not in your suggested way

customs/maps/c3v/sov/card tutorial/sell list

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  #195  
Old September 5th, 2018, 06:20 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

That hurts, but I'm sure that I'll get over it eventually.

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  #196  
Old September 11th, 2018, 01:58 AM
Looking East Looking East is offline
 
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

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Originally Posted by dok View Post
Taking away reach would make them much less distinctive, unique, and yes, fun.

And while they are certainly very strong as-is, they are not remotely "autoplay". I'd say they are in the upper half of units in terms of learning curve to get the most out of them. Probably not top quarter, but top half. There's a lot of positioning decisions involved in playing them well. And Raymond brings the disengage moves into play, too.

Knowing what I know now, if we were re-releasing them, the only thing I would change is the price.
I think the easiest way to fix them would be to make them a unique squad. When you look at these guys and their massive list of over powered special abilities they just scream unique and yet they are common. That's what really breaks them. The fact that you can run an entire army of these these bad boys. They basically hard counter every medium to high cost melee unit in the game and they have very few weaknesses due to their low cost per figure and very solid defense. They really don't have a truly bad match up.

When you look at their D20 braced spear special its basically an upgraded engagement strike from the Nakitas which similar to the spear men have a long list of cripplingly powerful specials, but they are unique squad that costs 40 pts per figure vs a common squad that costs 18.5 points per figure.

Also, as they stand right now I don't see how they aren't A+ rank. They are just strait up better than the other A rank melee squads.

Last edited by Looking East; September 11th, 2018 at 02:13 AM.
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  #197  
Old September 11th, 2018, 05:13 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Wouldn't argue with dok. If dok thinks a unit's not OP, it probably means it isn't.


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  #198  
Old September 11th, 2018, 06:34 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

The Cathars are definitely good, but they aren't the best thing in the game. A rank is where they should be, A+ is where the truly broken things reside.

I made a post a few pages back describing what I think would have been a more thematic version of Braced Spear. The idea was that a braced spear should be more effective against bigger things, and the power should reflect that. So the D20 rolls became; Small a 20, Medium 18 - 20, Large 16 - 20, Huge 14 - 20. Anything that's huge is going to have the life to tank a few hits, and it helps keep them from being as annoyingly powerful against the vast majority of melee squads. You can of course tweak these numbers as needed to bring them to whatever balance you see fit.
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  #199  
Old September 11th, 2018, 07:26 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Take 10 points off the Knights of Blackgaard and slap them on these guys and we'll call it even.

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  #200  
Old September 11th, 2018, 10:02 AM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

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Originally Posted by NecroBlade View Post
Take 10 points off the Knights of Blackgaard and slap them on these guys and we'll call it even.
I'd probably price these at 90 given another swing at it, but yeah, pretty much.
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  #201  
Old September 11th, 2018, 01:57 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Yes, that was my thought also. In my experience, a grade of A and mild regret over the price is the correct response.

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  #202  
Old September 11th, 2018, 02:29 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looking East View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post
Taking away reach would make them much less distinctive, unique, and yes, fun.

And while they are certainly very strong as-is, they are not remotely "autoplay". I'd say they are in the upper half of units in terms of learning curve to get the most out of them. Probably not top quarter, but top half. There's a lot of positioning decisions involved in playing them well. And Raymond brings the disengage moves into play, too.

Knowing what I know now, if we were re-releasing them, the only thing I would change is the price.
I think the easiest way to fix them would be to make them a unique squad. When you look at these guys and their massive list of over powered special abilities they just scream unique and yet they are common. That's what really breaks them. The fact that you can run an entire army of these these bad boys. They basically hard counter every medium to high cost melee unit in the game and they have very few weaknesses due to their low cost per figure and very solid defense. They really don't have a truly bad match up.

When you look at their D20 braced spear special its basically an upgraded engagement strike from the Nakitas which similar to the spear men have a long list of cripplingly powerful specials, but they are unique squad that costs 40 pts per figure vs a common squad that costs 18.5 points per figure.

Also, as they stand right now I don't see how they aren't A+ rank. They are just strait up better than the other A rank melee squads.
While I’m not going to argue that the Cathar aren’t very good (they are) and that they can be frustrating to play against for certain, monolithic builds (they are), they’re not broken (IMO). Three little words: Human Champion Bonding. Or Warlord Bonding. Or even Orc Champion Bonding. Anything that let’s your allegedly worse melee bruisers mitigate Braced Spear, or coordinate a ranged unit to negate its effects altogether.
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  #203  
Old September 11th, 2018, 03:27 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

[quote=Son of Arathorn;2221624][quote=Looking East;2221503]
Quote:
Originally Posted by dok View Post

While Iím not going to argue that the Cathar arenít very good (they are) and that they can be frustrating to play against for certain, monolithic builds (they are), theyíre not broken (IMO). Three little words: Human Champion Bonding. Or Warlord Bonding. Or even Orc Champion Bonding. Anything that letís your allegedly worse melee bruisers mitigate Braced Spear, or coordinate a ranged unit to negate its effects altogether.
If you can build an all melee army that can consistently beat an equal number of points worth of Cathar Spearmen I would be impressed. You can use any combination of all the melee pieces in the game. Do you know of any build that could pull this off? When I say all melee, I am including special attacks and special abilities. I'm not being sarcastic. I am being serious in asking if you can come up with a melee build that will take them down.

I guess to make things more fair both sides should get a Raelin since she is so brokenly strong in a melee only match up that she would really skew the results if she was on one side but not the other.

My guess is the best approach would be using extremely cheap bonded melee squads capable of throwing a lot of attack dice per OM. They need to be very low cost so that they don't just lose to attrition from the D20 and they need to throw a lot of attack dice to overcome the godly defense the spearmen have.

Since there would be no Zelrig style specials to worry about probably the bonded orcs or romans would fair decently since they are super cheap and could huddle up for bonuses without penalty.

I'm curious enough now to try actually making a game of it next time I get together with my friends to play. Perhaps we will have a "Beat the Cathar Spearmen Challenge Night" to see if anyone can do it.
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  #204  
Old September 11th, 2018, 05:49 PM
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Re: The Book of Cathar Spearmen

Spoiler Alert!


Spoilered the whole post for length reasons.

You seem to have missed this part of my post:
Quote:
Anything that let’s your allegedly worse melee bruisers mitigate Braced Spear, or coordinate a ranged unit to negate its effects altogether.
So I’m not sure why we’re talking about all-melee builds. Anyone* who brings such an unbalanced army to a tournament expecting to go far deserves the hard lesson they’ll get. And I can only assume competition is the concern here.

Are you running Knights of Weston? Use Sir Gilbert or Finn to engage the Cathars and some 4th Mass to soften them up. What about Romans? Bring on the Azurite Warlord to engage, and 4th Mass or 10th Reg paired with Marcus to pour on the fire. Heavy Gruts? Use Ornak to fling Krug or an Ogre Warhulk into them, or Moltenclaw to break their lines. Axegrindwrs of the Burning Forge? Mok and Morgrimm Forgehammer will carry their weight and then some. Capuan Gladiators? It might suck to be you, to be honest, but the Steamroller ain’t perfect.

I guess my point here is that if your opponent keeps crushing your scissors with his rock, maybe try a piece of paper. Preferably one with a pattern that doesn’t clash.




*Anyone not named Matthias

Last edited by Son of Arathorn; September 11th, 2018 at 06:07 PM.
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