The Book of Casual Rule: Knockback

[fret_gurglo]

KNOCKBACK
Knockback is an optional rules system intended to simulate the mighty power of super strong fighters smashing each other with powerful melee attacks and the resulting backward tumbles and stumbles.Knockback is considered an extension of the Super Strength special power on a figure’s Army Card and is affected, as such, by any powers that would nullify or bypass the Super Strength special power.

When a figure with the Super Strength power attacks an adjacent figure with a normal attack and the adjacent figure does not ignore the attack, after damage has been resolved, determine Knockback. To determine Knockback, each skull rolled by the attacking figure counts as one Knockback point (KP). Each skull rolled by the defending figure cancels out one KP rolled by the attacker.

One thing that has always confused me about Knockback rules is the statement "super strong fighters smashing each other with powerful melee attacks", but then doesn't require the defender to have Super Strength. Maybe I missed something or it's done on purpose, but the theme is lost on me. Hulk can punch Bucky with 3 skulls and as long as Bucky rolls 3 skulls in defense he can resist being knocked back from Hulk?

[IAmBatman]

Some of that is just game balance, but even non-SS figures can resist getting knocked back (dodging, twisting, avoiding, even summoning their mortal strength, etc.). They're just not strong enough to knock anyone back themselves.

Edits look good, Karat! Thanks for taking this on, A3n!

[Dr. Jekyll]

Originally Posted by fret_gurglo

One thing that has always confused me about Knockback rules is the statement "super strong fighters smashing each other with powerful melee attacks", but then doesn't require the defender to have Super Strength. Maybe I missed something or it's done on purpose, but the theme is lost on me. Hulk can punch Bucky with 3 skulls and as long as Bucky rolls 3 skulls in defense he can resist being knocked back from Hulk?

He doesn't get knocked back, he gets smashed into the ground

[IAmBatman]

Heh, it's true that if Bucky is rolling 3 skulls on defense he's probably bleeding at that point.

Edit: Mortally wounded, in fact.

[fret_gurglo]

Fair enough. How about another question then (actually more of a clarification).

Knockback rules

KNOCKBACK
When a figure with the Super Strength power attacks an adjacent figure with a normal attack and the adjacent figure does not ignore the attack, after damage has been resolved, determine Knockback.

I am assuming that this is to reference figures that can dodge without having to roll dice. However they do not mention "ignore attack" but instead use the wording of "take no damage" or "block all damage".

SPIDEY-SENSES 9
If Spider-Man is attacked and at least 1 skull is rolled, roll the 20-sided die. Subtract 4 from the roll if the attacking figure is a Symbiote. If you roll 9 or higher, Spider-Man takes no damage and may immediately use his Web Swing 2 special power.

ACROBATIC MASTERY
Nightwing never takes falling damage and is never attacked when leaving an engagement. After rolling attack dice for a normal attack or after rolling defense dice, for each shield rolled you may immediately move Nightwing one space up to 6 levels up or down. When Nightwing rolls defense dice against an opponent's attack, one shield will block all damage.

So the question is, can Spider-man be knocked back (assuming he succeeds Spidey-Senses), can Nightwing be knocked back (assuming he rolls at least one shield)? And how would knocking back these figures work if they succeed and move on their own?

[IAmBatman]

The wording is probably imperfect. I believe the intent is that if they have a power that allows them to avoid rolling defense dice against the attack (i.e. successful Spidey-Sense roll) then Knockback doesn't occur. If they simply block the damage from a defensive roll (i.e. Acrobatic Mastery) then Knockback still occurs.

For Acrobatic Mastery and Knockback, I think both would occur simultaneously, so it'd be a matter of rolling a D20 to see which triggers first. If the figure moves away with Acrobatic Mastery before Knockback can be applied, then they're no longer adjacent, so Knockback doesn't get applied. If they're knocked back first instead, then they can still use their acrobatics to flip back up (assuming they're not destroyed first).

[toyhandle]

Originally Posted by Griffin

Well, IMO, the game mechanic of not moving into a figure's space is factored first. Why? Because special powers are simply rules that break game mechanics, and that implies that the mechanics come first.

KNOCKBACK: MOVEMENT
If a Knockback would cause a figure to move off of the map, place the figure on the last available move space on the edge of the map and do not roll for KD.

If a character is on the edge of the map and held by Mr. Fantastic, Blob or Doc Ock opposite the edge, would KD still apply? They couldn't move because of the map, no damage there, but they also can't move because of Rubber Wrap, Stuck or Cyber Claw.

[IAmBatman]

The inability to move due to Stuck, etc. would factor in first, so it would apply, IMO.

[toyhandle]

Then this is inaccurate?

Originally Posted by Griffin

Well, IMO, the game mechanic of not moving into a figure's space is factored first. Why? Because special powers are simply rules that break game mechanics, and that implies that the mechanics come first.

That quote was pertaining to the question of what would happen if Thing KnocksBack a figure Rubber Wrapped on the opposite side by Mr. Fantastic, where it was ruled at the time that Mr. Fantastic would indeed be included in the roll for Knockback Damage due to the above reasoning.

[IAmBatman]

I'm sorry, I'm not following you.

[toyhandle]

No, I'm sorry, I'll try to do better. Thanks for bearing with me.
Basically, when asked what would happen if Thing attacked Silver Surfer who is held on the opposite side by Mr. Fantastic, Griffin reasoned that "special powers are simply rules that break game mechanics, and that implies that the mechanics [are factored] first."

He determined:

"So, IMO, SS's knockback movement is stopped by the existing game mechanic that prevents him from moving through an enemy figure. That stopping of movement triggers knockback damage, and so SS and Mr F both roll for it.



Which makes me think, with that line of reasoning, it's possible for there to be no Knockback Damage in my Rubber Wrapped-opposite-Edge of Map question, because the Knockback Movement was already resolved by:
"If a Knockback would cause a figure to move off of the map, place the figure on the last available move space on the edge of the map and do not roll for KD."
Thus, Rubber Wrap would not be preventing any movement anyway, and wouldn't cause Knockback Damage after already resolving that first part of Knockback movement.



But when you said

The inability to move due to Stuck, etc. would factor in first, so it would apply, IMO.

that makes me reconsider the Thing-SS-MrF scenario, because if what you're saying is more accurate, then I think Mr. F would not roll for Damage in that T-SS-MF scenario.

Is it simply that before any movement takes place, Knockback movement and Special Abilities preventing movement would both need to be factored, so in the T-SS-MF scenario, only SS is rolled for, and in the Edge scenario, SS is still rolling for damage?




Here's a more full contex for the Thing-SS-MrF question, if you're curious:

Originally Posted by Griffin

Cool question.

SS can't move with knockback for two reasons: Mr F's Rubber Wrap special power, and the game mechanic of there being a figure there.

So we need to decide which is factored first.

Well, IMO, the game mechanic of not moving into a figure's space is factored first. Why? Because special powers are simply rules that break game mechanics, and that implies that the mechanics come first. Before you read a card and its special powers, you have to read and understand the rules first.

So, IMO, SS's knockback movement is stopped by the existing game mechanic that prevents him from moving through an enemy figure. That stopping of movement triggers knockback damage, and so SS and Mr F both roll for it.

[IAmBatman]

I guess you wouldn't roll for it, then. I'm happy to accept Griff's ruling.