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  #49  
Old September 24th, 2019, 10:10 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperSamyon View Post
In regards to term limits and available staff, I can certainly sympathize with the challenge that can come with finding quality, volunteers. Especially in a game as old as Heroscape with a community as small as it is. Truly, I recognize that my suggestion for term limits is tied to growing the community. If the community grows, then more volunteers will be available.

I will add however, that there are still things that each project can do to turn things around and get more people engaged. Today if someone was interested in joining a team, how would they go about doing that? Is there an email list to email, phone number to call, or a point of contact to submit a resume to? Or is it currently setup so that "we'll call you, don't call us."

The danger with not having a clear path to involvement is that the perception and optics from the outside is that only those who are in the "in" crowd will get asked to join. In my opinion, this is why I believe others have mentioned projects being cliquish. Indeed, it is easy to see that perception taking hold if positions rarely open up and when they do they are filled before someone can announce their interest. While it may be an unfair and untrue position, combating bad optics is a challenge for all projects that involve the community.

I also believe that the community is bigger than we all believe. I've been analyzing some of the metrics for the recent vc releases and so far we hover around 200 downloads for each card. That is impressive since when you go to the books many of the newer ones are empty. We have quite a large silent majority.

So I believe the community is there, just not engaged. How do we engage them? One way is by providing a clear pathway to join their favorite project. @IAmBatman you guys do a great job of doing that over at the C3G. I think each project should strive to do the same. Term limits was just one possible pathway.
The problem is that getting involved in C3V/SoV is very time intensive. I agree with you that there are a lot of lurkers on these forums (I know several of them in my own area), but we need people who will dedicate hours upon hours to this project. Looking at the public playtesting forum, there hasn't been a significant sign of that level of interest from the general populace, truth be told. As it stands, I fear that term limits would do more harm than good by forcing out many of the people who have dedicated the most to these projects. If they're feeling burned out, then they can step down (and people have in the past).

I do agree with you that C3V can seem enigmatic and unapproachable at first--I know that when I first came back to the site a year or two ago, I had absolutely no idea where to begin with the project or how to get involved. Luckily, they have been taking some steps to improve this since I got back, such as the move to public playtesting and the return of the Public Access Member program. These are both ways for people to help out and get involved, although with the PAM not running frequently and the lack of clear incentives for playtesting, I think that each could be expanded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
Yes, but there's no reward for doing it. You don't get points or anything like that (public members/designs aren't a thing), you don't even get a sneak peak as all the designs are posted publicly (and that wasn't enough when you did get it)... really, it honestly feels almost condescending, even if it doesn't mean to be. 'Here are our designs - little people, please test them for us? No, you can't comment on them unless you've tested them - not even a suggestion. No, you don't get anything for it - the knowledge of a job well done should be enough. Recognition from us is in no way guaranteed.' It feels actively hostile to public engagement except in a very limited, almost serfish way. It's all take and no give.
I mentioned this before years ago, here, but, as you can see, it received no response. Not one. That might be my biggest issue with VC. Any constructive criticism from has been met with, at most, what seems to amount to a pat on the head and a 'Don't worry - it's all under control, back where you can't see it'. That's where my frustration comes from - whatever people say, it's opaque and cliquey.
I may not be the best person to talk about this since I haven't had the time for public playtesting anymore since helping to start AotV and joining SoV, but I've always felt like my input was well-received. After running several tests with the Morgan's Riflemen, the team working on it asked me several questions about my thoughts for the unit and asked how I felt about some of the changes they were considering. Personally, that (and the fact that I already knew I used VC designs all the time and felt obligated to help out at least a bit) was far more rewarding for me than a points system. I disagree that it's all take and no give, but I understand why it feels that way. I'll leave the discussion of implementing more rewards (and what kind) to C3V members, because I honestly don't know what would be a reasonable yet appealing reward for theoretical playtesting points.

If recognition is a significant appeal to playtesting, though, then perhaps we could keep a list of the playtesters that contributed to a unit in a spoiler section of the book? It's just a quick spitballed idea, but something like that might help people see that their effort is greatly appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
I've also noticed that, while those in VC keep saying they want to see more people designing not necessarily with VC in mind, as far as I can tell, that's basically lipservice - I barely ever see a VC member comment in a customs thread unless the design is being workshopped as SoV material. When TheAverageFan was designing, I was often the only person commenting. (Scytale and, to a lesser degree, wriggz are seemingly special cases who avoided this.) You can say what you want, but when you only seem to value designs heading for SoV and all the other threads are left feeling dead, it does give the impression that SoV is what people ought to be striding for, at least when it comes to peer recognition. It's a culture that I think is quite harmful to the community at large. That's why I think a Public Design system like C3G would be a good idea - then, people can do their workshopped from the ground up for VC designs, with a lesser chance of frustration because it will be worked on collectively rather than trying to decide which of multiple directions to be pulled in (the number of times I've seen initially fun and exciting designs collapse under the weight of trying to appeal to multiple Judges' conflicting ideas is honestly sad) and SoV can be left for the nomination of personal customs which people thing deserve the nod, rather than ones created from the ground up for it, which will then result in a lower workload for Judges and a faster turnaround.
I used to try and make a point of responding and giving feedback to every customs post on the forums. Realistically, that's not something that I can do anymore. I've gotten involved in several projects, school picked back up, and I simply cannot devote all of my time to HeroScape. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'd imagine that many are in the same boat--working on these projects takes a lot of time, which naturally means that we don't have as much to spend elsewhere. I still try to comment on personal customs when one pops up at the right time or when I'm feeling particularly inspired, but I don't think that it falls solely on VC's shoulders to make all other threads feel lively (as you've mentioned, some of our own barely get any comments at this point).

We've tried to kickstart public design efforts in the past. The last one has pretty much lost all interest, but if you're interested in starting another one, then I'd say go for it. We'd need a different way of ensuring that the end result fits into VC's style if it isn't intended to be submitted to SoV like the Bootcamp of Valhalla was, though. I think that it's an idea worth exploring, although it'd obviously need more concrete details and structure to back it up.
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  #50  
Old September 24th, 2019, 10:17 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

I personally feel no responsibility or inclination to provide feedback on personal custom threads. I'm here for collaboration and enjoy group projects that are give and take. I have no real incentive to get involved in personal custom threads of other people and no real interest in what they're doing. To me, personal custom threads, where it's about a singular designer rather than collaboration, are much more of an all take, no give situation.

That said, I realize at their best that personal custom threads do inspire collaboration and that's when customs and the process of customizing reaches its full potential. But why try to reenact that in a space that's not naturally inclined towards it when it's so easy to just do collaborative design in a project where that's the established approach?

As a designer, I also never want to do a solo act again. I've been to the Promised Land and I'm not going back.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #51  
Old September 24th, 2019, 10:27 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

I love looking at people's personal customs threads. I don't go rummaging through them, though. If people ask me to look, I look.

Herding these cats takes pretty much all of my 'Scapers time, but I'll make time for others. Especially for quality designers like you, LO. I just don't go through that subforum to see what people are up to.

That's something the customs contests were good for. Things like the holiday contests would draw my attention.

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  #52  
Old September 24th, 2019, 10:57 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

It’s quiet in those parts. Not really a bad thing, it just makes the extra effort in going through someone’s designs much more important both on the commenter and the designer’s side. I don’t feel it’s really VC’s job to go boost people’s threads, or anyone else’s.

That being said, I do disagree with Bats that singular designers are all take no give. Solo or duo groups like Typhon and Sir Artorius(maybe? It’s been a long time since they were in here) and Super Bogue put out many good customs in their time. So good that when I played at one guy’s house (with his own custom rules for ‘Scape) he used a lot of their customs. Good designs should still be shared. Bad designs (like A LOT of my old stuff and maybe a lot of my new stuff ) should be shared with the hopes of it improving over time.

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  #53  
Old September 24th, 2019, 11:00 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Compared to a collaborative project, solo custom endeavors are much more take than give. I agree that any customs work, including much more selfish solo customs work, has something to give the community, and I'm glad it's here.

But if we're going to compare, solo customs projects are a much bigger culprit on the take versus give spectrum.

C3G can be played with official Heroscape, but it's not recommended.


DISCLAIMER: C3G claims no ownership of the characters or artwork used for C3G customs. All rights for the characters belong to their respective publishers/creators. C3G cards are not intended for sale, and C3G does not authorize any party to profit from C3G cards.

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  #54  
Old September 24th, 2019, 11:25 PM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

I really wasn’t trying to compare group projects vs solo projects. I’m just defending the validity of solo designers, and point out that they aren’t bad guys who simply want oooh’s and ahhh’s or whatever. Hell, I only put competitive maps on my maps thread because I figure there’s a “market” for competitive maps with higher build requirements. Otherwise, they’d sit on my computer forever.

Sure some/a lot of designers weren’t that great, especially in wild west of customs days, but it is what it is.

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  #55  
Old September 25th, 2019, 12:36 AM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

I just had a great idea for a custom project: Members of Heroscapers! That way everyone can battle it out on the game board. Fun thought, what would your personal card say??

Joking aside, in the interest of my original intention for this thread which has been somewhat lost in all the chaos of the day, let's try to accomplish something with all this discussion.


For those that want change, please list a couple of the things that are easily fixable along with some things that are more of a long term goal. What would make you happy? What would make you more involved in these projects? I love the idea of incentives btw. Sometimes small gestures can go a long way in making someone feel valued.

Folks that are in the custom projects, I've already seen commitments from some members to adjust some things based on feedback you agree with. If there is anything you are taking away from this discussion, please feel free to share your thoughts.

Finally, all the many lurkers of this board, if you haven't done so, please make an account and make your voice heard. After all, it is the silent majority that keeps these custom projects in business.

I'm old and tired and going to bed for the night. Great discussion today!
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  #56  
Old September 25th, 2019, 01:05 AM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

A really cool idea was to mention the playtesters in the books. It’d be a neat way to see who all got to contribute to testing in all these years of the C3V. Where the data is available of course.

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Old September 25th, 2019, 01:07 AM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

I’m happy to find all that data (or at least everything I can find), and put it in the Books.

While we try to keep C3V stuff anonymous, I think that public contributions could definitely be recognized in that way.

customs/maps/c3v/sov

how to:
make a card/post your maps

google sheets:
ohs link generator/attack outcomes

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  #58  
Old September 25th, 2019, 02:32 AM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

I know I’m not involved with VC at all, but when I purchase the new X-Wing wave, inside each ship pack is the list of all the people involved with that ship, from designers to play testers. I think it’s really good form to publicly acknowledge the work people put in, even if it’s just in that small of a way.

Last edited by OrcElfArmyOne; September 25th, 2019 at 02:37 AM. Reason: I have more feedback too, but it’s not relevant to the current conversation, and I’m tired
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  #59  
Old September 25th, 2019, 02:54 AM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
I've also noticed that, while those in VC keep saying they want to see more people designing not necessarily with VC in mind, as far as I can tell, that's basically lipservice - I barely ever see a VC member comment in a customs thread unless the design is being workshopped as SoV material. When TheAverageFan was designing, I was often the only person commenting. (Scytale and, to a lesser degree, wriggz are seemingly special cases who avoided this.) You can say what you want, but when you only seem to value designs heading for SoV and all the other threads are left feeling dead, it does give the impression that SoV is what people ought to be striding for, at least when it comes to peer recognition. It's a culture that I think is quite harmful to the community at large. That's why I think a Public Design system like C3G would be a good idea - then, people can do their workshopped from the ground up for VC designs, with a lesser chance of frustration because it will be worked on collectively rather than trying to decide which of multiple directions to be pulled in (the number of times I've seen initially fun and exciting designs collapse under the weight of trying to appeal to multiple Judges' conflicting ideas is honestly sad) and SoV can be left for the nomination of personal customs which people thing deserve the nod, rather than ones created from the ground up for it, which will then result in a lower workload for Judges and a faster turnaround.
Your comments about VC members not posting in the other customs threads makes me wonder if you read what we've been saying about the amount of time and commitment these projects take from us. I used to spend a lot of time looking at people's customs and commenting. When I have time, I still do. But I have a busy life and what time I do have for Heroscapers is taken up with these projects. They take a *lot* of work. I generally feel like most people appreciate the effort we put into the content we produce but maybe you just don't?

Your custom probably has too much Defense.

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Old September 25th, 2019, 03:01 AM
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Re: SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroking112 View Post
If recognition is a significant appeal to playtesting, though, then perhaps we could keep a list of the playtesters that contributed to a unit in a spoiler section of the book? It's just a quick spitballed idea, but something like that might help people see that their effort is greatly appreciated.
We should have done this a long time ago!

Your custom probably has too much Defense.

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