Heroscapers
Go Back   Heroscapers > Marvel Legends HeroScape > Comic Hero Custom Creations > C3G Project > C3G Library
C3G Library This area collects all the released designs. Feel free to post any figure specific questions in their individual books.


Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #49  
Old August 14th, 2016, 10:37 AM
Tornado's Avatar
Tornado Tornado is offline
Fan Fiction Prompt Master
 
Join Date: August 11, 2010
Location: USA - MI - Kalamazoo (Climax)
Posts: 24,310
Images: 253
Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth Tornado is a man of the cloth
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Glad to have you in the Danger Room Lazy Orang.

I think most really like the Hasbro Dr. Doom and working that flavor into a C3G design was the basis here. I get that it feels like a retread but it is fairly fresh if you ignore the Hasbro design.

Really looking forward to your thoughts on the magic system!

Tornado was the Nagrub thought bubble above the head of Brunak...
in THE MYCELOID MANOR
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old August 14th, 2016, 12:04 PM
TrollBrute's Avatar
TrollBrute TrollBrute is offline
Who ISN'T One of My Brothers??
 
Join Date: February 19, 2012
Location: USA - Ohio - Millersburg
Posts: 8,412
TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun TrollBrute is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

I agree with Tornado here. It's only a retread if you consider Hasbro Doom a real part of C3G. Even though we started there and owe them a lot, we've mostly moved away from those designs. This is basically the C3G version of the Hasbro Doom.

".... the Cambridge ladies do not care, above
Cambridge if sometimes in its box of
sky lavender and cornerless, the
moon rattles like a fragment of angry candy"
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old August 14th, 2016, 04:57 PM
Ronin's Avatar
Ronin Ronin is online now
Looking where the light is better
 
Join Date: January 3, 2013
Location: USA - CO - Westminster
Posts: 15,219
Images: 9
Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
First off, glad to be aboard.
Glad to have you!

Quote:
Second, cool idea to do a Sorcerer Doom design (especially considering the new magic system, which I'm glad I finally know what's happening with - it's been tantalising me for ages ).

Third, though, does his big power really need to be another mind control power? I mean, I'm sure it's thematic, but this is Doctor Doom, isn't he meant to be able to do a lot of different things? I like the design mostly, but I'm not that excited by the thought of one of his big two signature powers basically being another generic Mind Control (albeit with a risk attached) - I just feel like something a little more interesting could be done here, but maybe I'm missing something .
Like TB says, I don't tend to get much use out of the Hasbro units, and don't really count them as part of my 'canon', so I don't mind the overlap so much. Plus, I'm not a big fan of Hasbro Doom specifically; in the C3G arena especially, he fells over-costed and generally not befitting of Doom.

The ol' Mind Exchange trick is something that Doom's had in his arsenal for a long time (it was a Jack Kirby idea, natch), but it tends not to come up very much. But it does see use in the specific comics that I'm pulling from, though (the Waid/Wieringo Fantastic Four run, namely), so it felt like a natural fit.

Doom can do a lot of things, and I'd like to tackle them all eventually. I've got 2 or 3 different alternative Dooms in mind that would play up different aspects of the character and definitely wouldn't want a version of Mind Exchange on their cards. It felt right to me here, though, and I feel like the nature of his other powers puts him in a much different niche than Hasbro's Discount von Doom.

C3G (Welcome Center) (Books)
C3G Sortable Index
(Updated through Wave 28 - Marvel Cosmic)
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old August 14th, 2016, 05:16 PM
Lazy Orang's Avatar
Lazy Orang Lazy Orang is offline
Not Citrus
 
Join Date: November 10, 2012
Location: British Isles
Posts: 14,099
Images: 6
Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death!
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lazy Orang View Post
First off, glad to be aboard.
Glad to have you!

Quote:
Second, cool idea to do a Sorcerer Doom design (especially considering the new magic system, which I'm glad I finally know what's happening with - it's been tantalising me for ages ).

Third, though, does his big power really need to be another mind control power? I mean, I'm sure it's thematic, but this is Doctor Doom, isn't he meant to be able to do a lot of different things? I like the design mostly, but I'm not that excited by the thought of one of his big two signature powers basically being another generic Mind Control (albeit with a risk attached) - I just feel like something a little more interesting could be done here, but maybe I'm missing something .
Like TB says, I don't tend to get much use out of the Hasbro units, and don't really count them as part of my 'canon', so I don't mind the overlap so much. Plus, I'm not a big fan of Hasbro Doom specifically; in the C3G arena especially, he fells over-costed and generally not befitting of Doom.

The ol' Mind Exchange trick is something that Doom's had in his arsenal for a long time (it was a Jack Kirby idea, natch), but it tends not to come up very much. But it does see use in the specific comics that I'm pulling from, though (the Waid/Wieringo Fantastic Four run, namely), so it felt like a natural fit.

Doom can do a lot of things, and I'd like to tackle them all eventually. I've got 2 or 3 different alternative Dooms in mind that would play up different aspects of the character and definitely wouldn't want a version of Mind Exchange on their cards. It felt right to me here, though, and I feel like the nature of his other powers puts him in a much different niche than Hasbro's Discount von Doom.
Fair enough, my concern wasn't so much with the old Doom (after all, who the hell plays him?), but more that we already have so many mind control powers that unless something interesting's done with them they're starting to feel a little stale now, but I get where you're coming from and I'm sure he'll be great fun to play.


My Family's Classic Customs
- The Stiff Corpse
=====================
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old August 14th, 2016, 06:16 PM
japes's Avatar
japes japes is offline
A Man of Taste
 
Join Date: August 3, 2011
Location: USA - TX - Austin (SW)
Posts: 15,867
Images: 49
japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer japes is a wielder of the Ban Hammer
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

I play Hasbro Doom but like the mind swap aspect here so I can use Hasbro Doom less.

I do also play other Hasbro units as well. Hulk probably more so than the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IAmBatman View Post
It was a great idea that really brought this concept to the next level and now I just have to convince you of your own brilliance.
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old August 14th, 2016, 06:21 PM
Lazy Orang's Avatar
Lazy Orang Lazy Orang is offline
Not Citrus
 
Join Date: November 10, 2012
Location: British Isles
Posts: 14,099
Images: 6
Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death! Lazy Orang is hot lava death!
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Quote:
Originally Posted by japes View Post
I play Hasbro Doom but like the mind swap aspect here so I can use Hasbro Doom less.

I do also play other Hasbro units as well. Hulk probably more so than the others.
Hasbro Hulk's still great. The Hasbro units have their uses, even if the C3G ones are that bit better, IMO. Captain America comes to mind - the Captain you play if you want him leading squads! (A mixedscape army of a Jandar valiant base, Hasbro Cap and Thor sounds awesome and deadly - but, going off topic now).

Honestly, though, I always thought the Hasbro Doom was one of the worse Hasbro units, so if people feel a Mind Exchange power is iconic enough for Doom to play him despite his levels of crappiness, then I'm glad it's on this guy.


My Family's Classic Customs
- The Stiff Corpse
=====================
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old August 14th, 2016, 07:07 PM
Ronin's Avatar
Ronin Ronin is online now
Looking where the light is better
 
Join Date: January 3, 2013
Location: USA - CO - Westminster
Posts: 15,219
Images: 9
Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

To be fair to Hasbro Doom, Doom can be a very hard character to capture. He's got a lot going on and there are a lot of different ways you can implement him. I feel like the C3G version did a great job with him, albeit at the cost of some complexity on the card. There are some alternate universe versions of Doom I'd still like to see, and some takes that are keyed into specific stories, but I'm satisfied on the "plain ol' classic Doctor Doom" front. I don't think there's any competing with the C3G version. (Plus, we have the Hasbro version around if you really want him in your supervillain team-up but can't budget the C3G version)

C3G (Welcome Center) (Books)
C3G Sortable Index
(Updated through Wave 28 - Marvel Cosmic)
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old August 24th, 2016, 11:53 PM
Ronin's Avatar
Ronin Ronin is online now
Looking where the light is better
 
Join Date: January 3, 2013
Location: USA - CO - Westminster
Posts: 15,219
Images: 9
Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Played another game with Doom/Bats III. Actually pretty concerned about that combo, since it just crushed the FF even with not-so-great luck. I'd say Batman III is the foremost balance concern here, more-so than the Doombots.

Barring the possibility of something clever that would stop him working with Batman III (I got nothin'), I think we'll have to go back to a bigger failure range for Mystic Domination (1-5, scaling with markers). With the smaller range I've been using for the last few games (1-3), it's just too easy for Batman to get you a no-risk Magical Defense heavy-hitter.

C3G (Welcome Center) (Books)
C3G Sortable Index
(Updated through Wave 28 - Marvel Cosmic)
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old August 25th, 2016, 11:21 AM
Yodaking's Avatar
Yodaking Yodaking is online now
C3G Landlord
 
Join Date: March 7, 2008
Posts: 27,066
Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Looks like we need to go back to -2 to the roll for each marker on the card. It should be a risky move to take him all the way up to 7/7 stats. Having him at max power level for only a short period of time seems like the best way to balance it. You can always just run him at 6/6 stats for the first 5 rounds of the game to minimize the risk before deciding to go all in only if you are losing.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old August 25th, 2016, 12:23 PM
Ronin's Avatar
Ronin Ronin is online now
Looking where the light is better
 
Join Date: January 3, 2013
Location: USA - CO - Westminster
Posts: 15,219
Images: 9
Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

Yeah, it's a shame that we have to do that, though. Outside of Batman builds, I feel like he's already there, and I'd actually be arguing to push his cost down. Kind of a dream team for Batman because he can make a huge difference by intervening just a few times.

C3G (Welcome Center) (Books)
C3G Sortable Index
(Updated through Wave 28 - Marvel Cosmic)
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old August 26th, 2016, 02:45 PM
Ronin's Avatar
Ronin Ronin is online now
Looking where the light is better
 
Join Date: January 3, 2013
Location: USA - CO - Westminster
Posts: 15,219
Images: 9
Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun Ronin is a penguin with a machine gun
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

So here's where we're at. Not done yet, because I'm planning on making a few changes to sort out his balance. More on that after the results so far.

C3G STANDARD PLAYTEST FEEDBACK FORM

NAME OF THE PLAYTEST UNIT: Doctor Doom (II)

Version used for Games 1-2:
Spoiler Alert!


Army Test
Map: Sewer Labyrinth
Units: Doctor Doom, Blob, Doctor Fate, Jason Voorhees (1000) vs Fantastic Four (1000)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sewer Labyrinth
Units: Doctor Doom, Doombot x2, Doctor Fate, Blob (1015) vs Fantastic Four (1000)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________
Version used for Games 3-5:
Spoiler Alert!



Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Doctor Doom, Batman (III), Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Red Arrow, Doombot (1000) vs Ms. Marvel, Red Tornado, Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) (1000)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Doctor Doom, Batman (III), Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Red Arrow, Doombot (1000) vs Ms. Marvel, Red Tornado, Green Lantern (Hal Jordan) (1000)
Spoiler Alert!

___________________________________________________________

Army Test
Map: Sacred Shrine
Units: Doctor Doom, Batman (III), Green Arrow (Oliver Queen), Red Arrow, Doombot (1000) vs Fantastic Four (1000)
Spoiler Alert!


So as things stand, he's definitely coming in too strong with Batman III. Looking back, there were some red flags in games 3-4 that I missed because I didn't type up the games right away.

From here, we have a few options for balancing him out, which we may want to adopt one or more of:

A - Raising the failure range for Mystic Domination
  • Kind of the knee-jerk response, and it would solve some of his Batman issues, but I really hate to have him in a spot where he's balanced around one specific figure that's not even a thematic team-up. So far as I know, there really aren't any other d20 manipulators that can do what Batman does for him (and likely never will be, since you can only have so many open d20 manipulators).
B - Busting up the Batman synergy
  • This would be nice, but with Batman's power being as open as it is, there's not really an elegant way to do it that I can think of. It would require something hacky like not letting Doom's d20 rolls be modified.
C - Busting up the Doombots synergy
  • Batman is the real problem here, but taking away the Doombots would take the edge off even in Batman builds. Batman would still let you take away most or all of the risk associated with the Invocation Markers, but taking away the Doombot revivals would significantly diminish the returns on Batman's marker investments, and allow Doom to actually be in danger at some point during a game. Plus, it makes thematic sense; not only in the "focusing on magic rather than science" theme department, but also in that Doombots shouldn't be able to mimic magic/spell-casting.
  • As for the how, explicitly saying in the text that you can't use Decoy of Doom could fit into Invoked Demons, though that does start to get the card a bit cluttered. There are a couple alternative options, as well:
    • We could cheat the Doombots a bit by naming the figure "Doom" rather than Doctor Doom, since Doom often refers to himself and is referred to that way. I'd prefer to keep him Doctor Doom to keep consistent with Doctor Doom (I) and Hasbro Doom, though.
    • We could go back and amend the Doombots to give them some kind of class criteria (EDIT: or any thing else that makes sense, not strictly class) that puts this Doom out of reach ("If you control a Doctor Doom who is a Ruler..." or what have you). Not nuts about the idea of updating an old unit to make this one work, but it would provide the additional benefit of cutting out any future Dooms that don't make as much sense with the Doombot back-up. If someone ever comes along and wants to do Zombie Doctor Doom or Beyonder-powered Doctor Doom or whatever, they won't have to deal with the Doombots.

And of course there is always

D - Change up the approach a little

I've spent a day mulling it over, and C in some form is my preferred balancing measure. But I'm open to whatever suggestions people have; I've been kind of forced to take this one slow, so there's no sense in rushing things now.

C3G (Welcome Center) (Books)
C3G Sortable Index
(Updated through Wave 28 - Marvel Cosmic)

Last edited by Ronin; November 14th, 2016 at 09:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old August 26th, 2016, 04:05 PM
Yodaking's Avatar
Yodaking Yodaking is online now
C3G Landlord
 
Join Date: March 7, 2008
Posts: 27,066
Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth Yodaking is a man of the cloth
Re: The Book of Doctor Doom (II) (Initial Playtesting Phase)

If we can make C work, and you think that would help mitigate the Batman III issue, then that seems like the best direction. Like you mentioned the theme works better if the Doombots were not available to him. FYI, I don't think the B option is all that 'hacky' in nature. We have talked about having d20 rolls that can't be modified on other cards before.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Go Back   Heroscapers > Marvel Legends HeroScape > Comic Hero Custom Creations > C3G Project > C3G Library
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Book of Black Manta A3n C3G Library 156 August 12th, 2019 11:04 AM
The Book of N'Astirh Yodaking C3G Library 183 December 19th, 2018 07:41 PM
The Book of Chase Stein johnny139 C3G Library 82 May 1st, 2018 06:31 PM
The C3G Book of Doctor Doom Griffin C3G Library 492 February 12th, 2017 07:03 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:21 PM.

Heroscape background footer

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
User Alert System provided by Advanced User Tagging (Lite) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.