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  #3649  
Old September 10th, 2019, 01:13 PM
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The Long eared bat The Long eared bat is offline
 
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post

Well met!

Simpler to drop the Hero and Windup after the Hammerers’ turn, or the end of the Round, and/or by revealing the X Order Marker.

I did originally have that they wind up after taking a turn and could also reveal a X order marker to add an additional wind up marker, but if it easier to just have them winding up after there turn I am fine with that.
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  #3650  
Old September 10th, 2019, 01:39 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

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Originally Posted by The Long eared bat View Post
Mechanically, I think that the price is probably closer to 70-90 points than 50 for a three person squad here. 3 defense with Warforged Resolve is very durable, and their primary drawback (having a slow movement and start before they can build up Wind Up Markers) can be helped by Warden 816 or certain game formats such as Heat of Battle.

I agree with Sir Heroscape that Wind Up would be better served by only activating when taking turns with the Hammerers. Neither Siege nor Heirloom really stand out as conventional leaders despite being Warforged Heroes, so as worded the power makes me wonder why the Warforged Soldiers aren't included in that synergy web.

I also have a slight preference for capping Wind Up at 3 markers instead of 4, since most cases of markers in HeroScape use 3 of them and a Special Attack of 5 dice is already pretty strong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Long eared bat View Post
What do people think of this three man squad. Figures used three Hammerer #07 Blood War D&D Miniatures
That might pose a problem. Generally, squads using the same figure multiple times have been avoided since classic HeroScape used a different pose or sculpt for each member of a squad. Warforged have an easier time justifying this to me because of their armored nature, but it's still less than ideal.

More problematic is a relative lack of availability for this miniature. If you want the same figure to be used three times for this Common Squad that most players will want to buy multiples of, I'd think that this figure would need an availability about 9 times higher than what a Unique Hero requires. I did a quick cursory search online, but it seems to be sold out at many places and to not have a great availability on many of the other normal sites. If you want to use this figure, I'd suggest considering a Unique Hero and searching for places that have lots of sculpts available.
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  #3651  
Old September 10th, 2019, 02:01 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

I should of checked for availability (which I feared) and also should of known that squads use different sculpts. I will just knock this one on the head (with a hammer) and keep it as a personal custom. Thanks for the advice and feedback.

Last edited by The Long eared bat; September 10th, 2019 at 03:30 PM.
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  #3652  
Old September 10th, 2019, 03:15 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
NIERIEL

General Ullar

Unique Hero
Species Elf
Class Ranger
Personality Tricky

Size Medium 4

Life 4
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 3

Points 110

NEEDLE
Range 4, Attack 2
Before or after moving, Nieriel may attack with Needle. Defending figures roll 1 less defense die for each skull rolled with Needle. She still may attack with her normal attack this turn.

DOUBLE ATTACK
When Nieriel attacks, she may attack one additional time. [Nieriel may attack with her normal attack twice, her Special Attack twice, or with each once.]

QUICK SWITCH
If Nieriel is attacked with a normal attack while engaged and at least 1 skull is rolled, before rolling defense dice, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, choose an opponent's small or medium figure adjacent to Nieriel who is not attacking and switch it with Nieriel. That figure is now the target of the attack and must roll defense dice. Figures moved by Quick Switch never take any leaving engagement attacks.
Mixing Needle with Double Attack is too messy an cumbersome. Mixing Double Attack and any special attack already poses rule questions (since the rules say you cannot use both a normal and special attack in the same turn), but Needle also allows a normal attack on top of it. Reading through the powers it's unclear how they interact. Just leave the line that allows Needle to work along with a normal attack and be done with it.

Allowing Needle to happen before movement is a no-go; we've had to rework designs in C3V that tried to do similar. The sequence of a turn is too baked into the core rules to be malleable. (Note the many different effects that happen "after moving and before attacking.") You can mix attacks and movements together, like Kumiko, but only if the movement is part of the special attack itself and therefore part of the attack phase.

Quick Switch is also problematic. There are lots of different defensive powers Quick Switch would interact with, and some will not play well with it. Especially any powers that trigger based on targeting, such as Zogross's Tribal Protection, since the dice roll is already after the targeting subphase.
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  #3653  
Old September 10th, 2019, 05:07 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scytale View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
NIERIEL

General Ullar

Unique Hero
Species Elf
Class Ranger
Personality Tricky

Size Medium 4

Life 4
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 3

Points 110

NEEDLE
Range 4, Attack 2
After moving, Nieriel may attack with Needle. Defending figures roll 1 less defense die for each skull rolled with Needle. She still may attack with her normal attack this turn.

QUICK SWITCH
If Nieriel is attacked with a normal attack while engaged and at least 1 skull is rolled, before rolling defense dice, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, choose an opponent's small or medium figure adjacent to Nieriel who is not attacking. Switch Nieriel with the chosen figure. If you do, the attacking figure must attack the chosen figure, if possible, and cannot attack any other figure this turn. Figures moved by Quick Switch never take any leaving engagement attacks.

Mixing Needle with Double Attack is too messy an cumbersome. Mixing Double Attack and any special attack already poses rule questions (since the rules say you cannot use both a normal and special attack in the same turn), but Needle also allows a normal attack on top of it. Reading through the powers it's unclear how they interact. Just leave the line that allows Needle to work along with a normal attack and be done with it.

Allowing Needle to happen before movement is a no-go; we've had to rework designs in C3V that tried to do similar. The sequence of a turn is too baked into the core rules to be malleable. (Note the many different effects that happen "after moving and before attacking.") You can mix attacks and movements together, like Kumiko, but only if the movement is part of the special attack itself and therefore part of the attack phase.

Quick Switch is also problematic. There are lots of different defensive powers Quick Switch would interact with, and some will not play well with it. Especially any powers that trigger based on targeting, such as Zogross's Tribal Protection, since the dice roll is already after the targeting subphase.
I hear and will obey concerning the first 2 powers.

As to the third, it is inspired by Cormin the Dark’s Facade. Will rewrite (above) to conform to Facade’s restrictions.




Next Generation


Last edited by kolakoski; September 10th, 2019 at 06:00 PM.
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  #3654  
Old September 10th, 2019, 05:16 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
As to the third, it is inspired by Cormin the Dark’s Facade. Will rewrite (above) to conform to Facade’s restrictions.
Yeah, the trick there is that Facade happens when Cormin is targeted, which is still during the targeting subphase, which is the first part of the attack phase. If you change to that, it should be ok.
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  #3655  
Old September 10th, 2019, 10:10 PM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop


Well met!

Quick Switch needs another name . . .

NIERIEL

General Ullar

Unique Hero
Species Elf
Class Ranger
Personality Tricky

Size Medium 4

Life 4
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 3

Points 110

NEEDLE
Range 4, Attack 2
After moving, Nieriel may attack with Needle. Defending figures roll 1 less defense die for each skull rolled with Needle. She still may attack with her normal attack this turn.

REVERSAL
If Nieriel is attacked with a normal attack while engaged and at least 1 skull is rolled, before rolling defense dice, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, choose an opponent's small or medium figure adjacent to Nieriel who is not attacking. Switch Nieriel with the chosen figure. If you do, the attacking figure must attack the chosen figure, if possible, and cannot attack any other figure this turn. Figures moved by Reversal never take any leaving engagement attacks.




Next Generation


Last edited by kolakoski; September 10th, 2019 at 11:11 PM.
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  #3656  
Old September 11th, 2019, 05:22 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

To avoid weird side cases (like an ability similar to the Skull Demon's ability where you roll 1 less attack die against it), you should activate Reversal after being targeted for an attack, but before any dice are rolled. Otherwise, the switched figure could have affects on the attacking figure, which should have affected their roll, but didn't, because they weren't adjacent before the switch.
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  #3657  
Old September 11th, 2019, 09:42 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop


Well met!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
To avoid weird side cases (like an ability similar to the Skull Demon's ability where you roll 1 less attack die against it), you should activate Reversal after being targeted for an attack, but before any dice are rolled. Otherwise, the switched figure could have affects on the attacking figure, which should have affected their roll, but didn't, because they weren't adjacent before the switch.
The conceit here is that Reversal happens during the attack, too suddenly for it to be affected. As Reversal mirrors Cormin the Dark ‘s Facade, I imagine those issues were addressed during Cormin ‘s creation.




Next Generation

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  #3658  
Old September 11th, 2019, 10:07 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post

Well met!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf_It View Post
To avoid weird side cases (like an ability similar to the Skull Demon's ability where you roll 1 less attack die against it), you should activate Reversal after being targeted for an attack, but before any dice are rolled. Otherwise, the switched figure could have affects on the attacking figure, which should have affected their roll, but didn't, because they weren't adjacent before the switch.
The conceit here is that Reversal happens during the attack, too suddenly for it to be affected. As Reversal mirrors Cormin the Dark ‘s Facade, I imagine those issues were addressed during Cormin ‘s creation.

The current version of reversal actually does not mirror Cormin’s ability.

EDIT: For Reference...
Quote:
FAÇADE
If Cormin the Dark is targeted for a normal attack from an opponent’s figure, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll an 11 or higher, choose a small or medium figure you control that is within 4 spaces of Cormin. Switch Cormin with the chosen figure. If you do, the attacking figure must attack the chosen figure, if possible, and cannot attack any other figure this turn. Figures moved by Façade never take any leaving engagement attacks. You cannot roll for the Façade power more than once per turn.
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  #3659  
Old September 11th, 2019, 10:20 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop


Well met

NIERIEL

General Ullar

Unique Hero
Species Elf
Class Ranger
Personality Tricky

Size Medium 4

Life 4
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 3
Defense 3

Points 110

NEEDLE
Range 4, Attack 2
After moving, Nieriel may attack with Needle. Defending figures roll 1 less defense die for each skull rolled with Needle. She still may attack with her normal attack this turn.

REVERSAL
If Nieriel is attacked with a normal attack while engaged and at least 1 skull is rolled, before rolling defense dice, you may roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, choose an opponent's small or medium figure adjacent to Nieriel who is not attacking. Switch Nieriel with the chosen figure. If you do, the attacking figure must attack the chosen figure, if possible, and cannot attack any other figure this turn. Figures moved by Reversal never take any leaving engagement attacks.

The only differences are the range of the power, limiting it to figures you control, and its repeatability. For the purposes of Leaf_It’s objections, they are irrelevant. Admittedly, the mirroring is not exact, but it addresses the issues raised in the same way Facade does.




Next Generation

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  #3660  
Old September 11th, 2019, 10:25 AM
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop

Quote:
Originally Posted by kolakoski View Post
The only differences are the range of the power, limiting it to figures you control, and its repeatability. For the purposes of Leaf_It’s objections, they are irrelevant. Admittedly, the mirroring is not exact.
Leaf_It is exactly right. The existing version does not work for the reasons Leaf_It stated. Facade happened when the figure is targeted, and your version happens after the attack die roll. That makes the power completely different in terms of how it interacts with defensive powers, mostly notably targeting-related ones, and is not covered by Facade rulings. It does not work in its current form.
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